Health and safety issues

[shaggy555]

Hi,

 

I recently started a thread about casio's new L.E.D. projectors.

I am really impressed with these units and am keen to use them in my school (secondry level technology college). We are looking to replace at least 10 older units (VT460) over the summer.

The problem I have come up against is that the powers that be are now starting to worry (wrongly IMO) about Health and Safety and BECTUs guidelines on projectors in the classroom...

This means that instead of myself being able to just replace the old units for new without having to alter the existing infrastucture (mounts, wiring looms etc) I am now going to have to remove all the old gubbins and replace with wallmounts, new wallplates etc... Although I like the EMP410we units we will use for this (great projectors as far as they go!) the are more expensive, both in initial purchase price and significantly in running costs and enviromental impact, (and of course they will have to pay me more to do it as it will take a great deal longer for each room to be upgraded!!!) I feel that this is a retrograde step both technically and enviromentaly...

So I was wondering if anyone else has come up against a similar issue and how it was resolved.

I would be very interested to hear any opinions you may have and any views on the BECTU / HSE guidelines!

 

Many thanks in advance :)

[Brian]

...any views on the BECTU / HSE guidelines!

I'm confused.

 

What has BECTU got to do with what goes on in a classroom?

 

And the only HSE guidelines I could find were about not staring into the beam.

 

Got a link?

[grizzly]

I think shaggy555 means Becta, not BECTU: Clicky

 

The HSE guidance can be found here.

[Andrew C]

The BECTA recommendation is that the projector shouldn't be over 1800l. They further say that if this doesn't give a bright enough image, the next step is to see to blinds etc before going for a brighter projector.

 

I've not looked recently, but I'd guess that it will soon become difficult to get relatively dim projectors as this isn't what the market wants.

[Brian]

So now I'm confused why he need new mounts and cabling.

[kerry davies]

It seems that this school has had a quick shufti at the BECTA guidance where it says that you don't have to worry about high values of lamp power with ultra-short throw projectors. Another interpretation would have been "Don't look at the light" and "Don't let anyone else look at it either" but there is some settling in of the non-ionising radiation directive and, as per usual, people are failing to do their jobs properly and going for an Elf'n'Safety says solution. All HSE says is to "consider" ultra short throw projectors, not that they are mandatory.

 

All the info specifically states that there must be an adequate risk assessment and I very much doubt that anyone in authority is capable of that in Shaggy's case. Easier to ban it and spend a fortune on an alternative. If that is what they want and are prepared to pay for it then there isn't much that anyone can do, it's just another example of half understood regs inappropriately applied.

 

What I could suggest is to sit down with the powers that be and thoroughly go through all the guidance pointing out that short-throw is not the only answer; a good RA, a decent laser pointer and some common sense is equally valid.

[TheLightsTech]

This is madness... you guys have regs for CLASSROOM PROJECTOR OUTPUT??? I am very glad I don't live on that side of the pond. I'm willing to venture a guess that there are few to no cases of a student suffering eye damage from a projector. I could see a little basis for worrying about a teacher who's up there most of the day... but still. Does H&S really have nothing better to police?

[paulears]

Of course it's madness - they're working in schools and colleges where Health and Safety has no direct link with the real world!

 

I wonder if perhaps anybody has thought about the older stage people - those in their sixty plus years who have been on stage every performance with follow spots and other stage lights MUCH brighter than an OHP actually shining directly into their eyes, following their every move.

 

On a cumulative level - the impact on a teacher in front of a white board who doesn't gaze at the light source anyway is minimal.

[kerry davies]

Yes Paul, it is being looked at, at least the PSA has been addressing this. This isn't even law yet and will have very limited affect on the industry which is already assumed to be taking adequate precautions where values may possibly be exceeded. (Don't look at the light!)

For Shaggy to beat his boss around the head:

There is an EU guide: http://www.hse.gov.uk/radiation/nonionising/aor-guide.pdf

"Non-Binding Guide to the Artificial Optical Radiation Directive 2006/25/EC" (note the non-binding bit).

Section 2.3 Trivial Sources

"Desktop projectors Safe if beam not looked into"

which is followed for those interested by:

"Low pressure UVA blacklight Safe if not in line of sight.

Any ”Class 1” laser device (to EN 60825-1) Safe if covers intact. May be unsafe if covers removed."

 

The paragraph head says: "not hazardous in normal use (i.e. potential over-exposure only occurs in unusual circumstances (staring at the beam)) Where a workplace contains only those sources listed in these tables, and where they are only used in the circumstances described, it may be considered that no further risk assessment is necessary."

 

So in fact the only RA needed is one which says, "Do not look at the light" and "Do not let anyone else look at the light either". Again it is a case of the uninformed leading the way on H&S, as you rightly imply.

[henny]

I would say the brighter the better because ........

 

a dim projector in a class room e.g. 1200 ancii would need blinds closeing/lights out to be of any real use.

 

this causes another major problem of people straining their eyes trying to see their notes/text books and then you get in to the whole disability discrimination act thing for discriminating aganst people with poor eyesight having to work in with low light levels.

 

also the abent light levels should be as close to the level of light reflected from the screen so peoples eyes don't have to re-adjust when movieing from screen to page and back ect.

[shaggy555]

I think shaggy555 means Becta, not BECTU: Clicky

The HSE guidance can be found here.

 

Yes, BECTA, sorry a bit tired when I posted!!

 

So now I'm confused why he need new mounts and cabling.

 

 

New mounts and cable looms would be required if we converted to short throw as to location of the projector would be different (ie. on a wall mounted boom)...

 

Anyway thanks for the input guys... Should give me some more ammunition in fighting my case!

 

My main issue is that I see a major part of my job is to find economicaly viable solutions to problems within the school enviroment and save the school money... And this H&S bull**** (or at least a slaveish adherance to it, with little understanding) is allowing a shamefull waste of resources that could be utilised elsewhere to far better effect!

 

Maybe I should just do the work,take the money and keep quiet!

[sleah]

Working in a school, I can confirm that there is rather a lot of the smelly brown stuff banded about

Fortunately, in our school the big-wigs generally trust our judgement and will listen if we tell them something is being missinterpreted or blown out of context.

 

Ultra short throw projectors do seem to be the best way forward, for several reasons.

There's the 'don't look at it' thing mentioned, also wall mounting is often easier, be it due to fixings, stoopidly high ceilings, long cable runs, asbestos, obstacles such as light fittings... etc etc

Now if manufacturers could get ahead of the game... they would be producing ultra short throw LED projectors.

As mentioned, by their nature short throw can be much lower power, so LED has to be the obvious solution.

 

Why they have to keep trying to compete with traditional desktop projectors, which need to be at least 1800L or greater to be of any use, is beyond me.

The LED technology just isn't quite there yet to be a straight like-for-like exchange with a classroom projector that is likely to be around 2000L, with the possible exeption of the one mentioned at the start of this topic (I've not seen them!).

 

It's a not dissimilar situation to the LED fresnell that can replace a 500W or even 650W :D

[stagemanagement]

This is madness... you guys have regs for CLASSROOM PROJECTOR OUTPUT??? I am very glad I don't live on that side of the pond. I'm willing to venture a guess that there are few to no cases of a student suffering eye damage from a projector. I could see a little basis for worrying about a teacher who's up there most of the day... but still. Does H&S really have nothing better to police?

 

 

Well, not quite - we have ADVICE about classroom projector output levels over here.

 

Unfortunately, we also have rather a lot of under-experienced and over-paid staff who will take advice and interpret it as law - which causes all sorts of issues and excessive spending of the public purse!!

 

Anyone who works in schools or Local Authority venues in the UK will tell you, we get shows up and running DESPITE the management/conditions we work under, rarely because of it!!

 

edit: spelling!

[MarkPAman]

As mentioned, by their nature short throw can be much lower power, so LED has to be the obvious solution.

 

Why?

 

Unless you're projecting through fog, you will not be losing any of your brightness in the air - throw should make no difference at all.

[sleah]

As mentioned, by their nature short throw can be much lower power, so LED has to be the obvious solution.

 

Why?

 

Unless you're projecting through fog, you will not be losing any of your brightness in the air - throw should make no difference at all.

 

Not what I was told.....