Cant get my head around this...

[tommulliner]

Hi There,

 

One of my local theatre groups has just upgraded their lighting and bought their own equipment. There are some socapex connectors coming from their IWB which have 8 sockets on them each. We have ordered some socapex fan out spiders (I think they are) which, from the pictures, have 6 tails on each. If there are 8 Sockets on the bars, and it comes out to only 6 plugs, then where do the other 2 sockets go!? Are they pared with other sockets, or are they just 'missed out!'?

 

Any comments much appreciated.

 

Thanks... ;)

[Grahame]

Have you ordered the soca spiders from the same suppliers as the IWB's? If not, they may be wired differently. You'll need to check this before using them otherwise it could get nasty.

 

Most socas are six-way, so it is likely that either the IWBs have paired sockets, or are a different wiring configuration to the spiders top accommodate 8 ways.

[tommulliner]

Thanks Grahame, I'll check that out...

[TomHoward]

It's relatively common to get eight socket IWBs across six circuits - so the sockets on the IWB are wired 12345612. Of course, the warning about Socapex pinouts still applies - there are commonly-used pinouts that exist but you need to be certain.

[HobitLight]

At a venue I help out in the IWBs have eight individual sockets and are wired with socapex. The pin out is eight pairs of L + N. I'm not sure but the last two cores may be four earths per core. However, a large earth is also sent up seperatly which accomadates the earth for all eight circuits. It's an old install and I'm not 100% sure on the wiring, but I am certain of the eight pairs of L+N being sent via soca.

 

My point is that eight seperate circuits can be sent up via socapex, though it may not be industry standard. Of course, any pin configuration is entirely possible, which is why you should check before powering up the bar! ;)

[Guest lightnix]

The pin out is eight pairs of L + N. I'm not sure but the last two cores may be four earths per core...

In which case it should be condemned tomorrow.

 

My point is that eight seperate circuits can be sent up via socapex...

No they can't. The reason it's not industry standard is because it's illegal.

 

Jesus H. Christ ;)

[dbuckley]

The reason it's not industry standard is because it's illegal.

Whereas I don't disagree with your sentiments, which are bang on the money, the term "illegal" has (in English law) a quite specific meaning, it means (roughly) a criminal offense has been comitted for which you may be arrested and tried, so I was wondering what charge you would expect to be laid and against whom?

[lite_lad]

Although this is obviously not the most common way of doing it is it not safe because of the separate earth? (presuming this is properly connected at both ends)

particularly as it is installed so less chance of someone not connecting the earth before use. Although personally I would just use soca for the 6 ways it is generally used for(and what the connectors were probably designed for...)

[andy_s]

I imagine if a death was caused through neglect, carelessness or unsafe installation or other working practices, then a charge of corporate manslaughter may be brought. Company officers such as CEOs MDs or members of the board of directors may be held to account.

[dbuckley]

Although there is a industry standard way of wiring socas, there is no requirement from the manufacturer or from a recognised standard making body to wire them this way, ditto Hartings, so the most-often-seen connection scheme is not mandated in any way, shape, or form.

 

Contrast that with, for example, a C17 connector, or indeed a humble 13A plug, both of which are explicity marked with the function of each pin in a non-ambiguous manner, and indeed these connectors both have standards documents behind them that detail their usage.

 

Edited again (and again) for SPaG

[peternewman]

Given the Dutch can do/have done it on a Lectriflex, which only has 16 pins and the shell, it doesn't seem too wildly ridiculous that people could/have done it on a Soca with a whole three extra pins.

[adam2]

It is certainly possible to provide 8 circuits over socapex, and I doubt that so doing is illegal, as in a policeman could walk in and arrest you.

It would however be non standard and IMHO a foolish and potentialy dangerous thing to do.

In most situations there would be a substantial risk that the non standard wired socca would be interconnected with other equipment wired in the conventional way with potentialy dangerous results.

 

In the case of a fixed standalone install, the risks are small and I doubt that the law is being broken, but I would certainly advise against so doing.

 

If anyone has socca wired for 8 circuits rather than 6, then I would suggest changing it.

If this is not viable for financial or other reasons, then I would, as a minimum, affix conspicous warning notices to all accesable parts of the installation.

[Neil Hampson]

I understood that the 8 way Soca was quite common on the continent atr one time, particularly Germany. Whilst it is definately not good practice it is certianly not unique in employing a shared earth, the biggest risk is if the cable is not marked in some way and an 8 way 'in' spider is coupled to a 6 way 'out' resulting in two of the earth pins connected to a phase conductor. Another risk is that if the soca is not mated properly or the inner section spins, earth and phase conductors can be mixed up, where in the common 6 way configuration although there can be a mismatch of live-neutral and an accidental re-patch, there is no way of mis connecting the earth pins to anything other than earth.

[Tomo]

I understood that the 8 way Soca was quite common on the continent atr one time, particularly Germany.

Germany doesn't use Socapex at all - their electrical regulations don't accept soldered mains connections in plugs/sockets.

They use Harting connectors as these have screw terminals.

 

Importantly, they use a different pinout to the UK arrangement for Harting (often known as Lectriflex in the UK), so extreme care must be taken - connecting the continental system to the UK system may put live onto the casing or create a direct short circuit.

The UK system uses pins for Earth while the continental system may use those pins for additional circuits. The continental system also has a few different variants, which makes life very difficult.

 

As to to OP:

An 8-way IWB with a single socapex connection installed by a reputable company is almost certainly either 1-2-3-4-5-6-2-1 or 1-2-3-4-4-3-5-6.

In a school I'd guess the former.

 

Best way to find out is to look at the labels or the drawings - you need this information anyway before going any further.

[david.elsbury]

Yeah, straying OT for a second - it's quite an interesting one with regards to Weilands (Harting) as most of NZ use 5 circuit Weiland - LLLLL NNNNN with earth on shell. Whereas Australia seems to use 4 circuit Weiland - not sure how that's wired off the top of my head... but interconnecting the two systems can pose a very real problem...