Mark_UniLeeds Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 First off I know this is a non-commercial site so if I mention price comparison I'm talking relative as oppose to people putting loads of price lists up (if you've got a good price though feel good to PM me). We are a students union venue suite and as such the NUS passively (but very effectively) impose restrictions on certain aspects of our supply and demand chain by negotiating favourable prices with certain companies. Some years ago a local company began manufacturing "dense smoke fluid" which incidentally according to the COSHH sheet is "suitably only for use in laboratory environment". It holds for less than 5 minutes when the doors are open, the venue is full and the air con is at max. In an empty sealed venue it sometimes holds for less. It's clown shoes. It also leaves a greasy residue on all the metal work after just one night which quickly catches dust. Oh yeah and over extended periods it corrodes the copper wire inside an industrial size stage fan used for dispersion. The problem is that the factory is a registered NUSSL supplier which means the unit price per 5l bottle is pretty much unbeatable so those with the purse strings think all the other smoke fluids on the market are inordinately expensive. I'm looking to do a comparison and convince them to spend just a little more on this particular issue. We use all Martin Jem foggers (1800,1200 etc.) but I know how expensive Martin fluid is even at list price so I'm looking for fluids which are compatible with the Martin machines with a medium hold and a heavy density. Can anyone suggest anything worth trying, Antares or something? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head yourself to a great extent.This 'home-brew' fluid at worst leaves a greasy residue, which to be rank is the first reason I'd kick it out the door! Especially after just 1 day's use! I've always been of the opinion that fluids are matched to the machines by the manufacturers, and as such you should use what they recommend.I know that this is - in part - due to mfrs wanting to keep you tied to their product, but at the end of the day that's their prerogative and only good business sense. After all, the machines tend to be discounted to some extent because they will reap a more regular income from those who DO use the right fluids. But machines can differ, for example, in the temperature required for the heat exchanger to convert fluid to fog - and putting the wrong one in for a machine can seriously affect that machine, causing clogs, or not converting all the fluid, leading to drips etc. Best bet - use what the manufacturers recommend and shop around for best available price - and if you use a lot then look at buying in larger quantities. Or look at buying a machine that's more efficient in how much it uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djandydee Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Martin I fog is quite dense and lingers for a longer time (compaired with standard fluid) and is available in a 10L container. I am a bit concerned if you are using some kind of home brew fluid with a coshh lable stating lab use only, in a public area....I mean if the stuff is corroding copper wire, what the frigg is in it? Normal smoke fluid is based on a percentage of Glycol and pure water with a small amount of scent added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_UniLeeds Posted March 24, 2010 Author Share Posted March 24, 2010 DJAndyDee believe me they were using this stuff long before I started working here which is why I'm trying to stamp my presence by trying to steer them onto proper fluids. It also makes all of the metal work in the venues like fly paper which gathers dust in the air making it look like it has it's own fur coating. Just ideal. I managed to get hold of a sampler of the ZR mix from Martin and it held really well as well as lasting longer than I expected (5l did two 6 hour events with the fogger on constantly) but I'll have a look at the I fog. 10l containers may be a better option. The issue is that they won't let me drive to the factory to collect, they insist on shipping it halfway across the worlds (or to Denmark) before dispatching it back to me in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 I'm going to ask a rather leading question, albeit a simple one (and one that I seem to ask in a variety of situations here on the BR...). Why? That is, why does it appear to be the norm in discos up and down the country to have copious amounts of fog? Depending on the size of the space you're fogging up, That's some serious density to use a 5L bottle in just 2 evenings. So I'd personally ask your higher ups exactly what they 9or indeed you) want to achieve with the effect. Do you simply want it to give your light show the beam-showing ability that does enhamce the show? Because I honestly can't really see any other real use in a club environment. If that is all you need, then why are you going for fog?Why not haze? A decent hazer will last longer, give you (IMHO) a better effect, and use less fluid... Our new Le Maitre MVS hazer, for example, has a 2.5L fluid bottle and we started on the first bottle at the start of panto this January.That bottle has done 16 panto performances (plus set-up), 6 nights of dance shows, 7 nights of Gang show (again plus setup), 4 various one-nighters and an Elvis tribute. And the fluid level is maybe 2 inches down the bottle!OK, maybe it's not going to be on full-tilt 100% and the space we're filling may not be as big as your uni disco, but it's certainly worth hiring one as an alternative to see what the difference may be. Just food for thought for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_UniLeeds Posted March 24, 2010 Author Share Posted March 24, 2010 Ynot you make a fantastic point and believe me I've been down that route as well. I bring my Jem hazer in for live gigs if I can. Unfortunately the 2 events I talked about have promoters who seem to think that more smoke in the venues increases the number of beams of lights (we won't even get into the fact that they pay a professional VJ collective and there is sometimes so much smoke that it disrupts the beam path of the three projectors) and we have to do what we're told on those occasions. It also doesn't help that there are 4 main access points to the main venue and on large events they are all open to allow access to other venues as well as one being direct access to the smoking enclosure (cattle pen). So not only does it not hold but it dissipates. I'll have a read of the Le Miatre stuff and like you say maybe hire one in for a comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossmck Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 I'd second Ynot... I recently got a Base Hazer Pro hazer, again with a 2.5L bottle - it's done 8 panto performances, 2 dance shows, one drama thing that needed it and a disco (used to fill (densely) a hall much bigger than our little community-hall-type stage) and it's less then 1" from full now ... I've been amazed how economical this thing is, I was surprised at the cost of haze fluid for it but now I don't really care since it lasts so long (hangs well too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 ...why does it appear to be the norm in discos up and down the country to have copious amounts of fog? ...Along with copious amounts of alcohol it increases the chances of mating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 ...why does it appear to be the norm in discos up and down the country to have copious amounts of fog? ...Along with copious amounts of alcohol it increases the chances of mating.I always thought that the copious alcohol was what caused MOST of the fog - that is the fog that can only been seen by the drinker...! A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on. ..... we have to do what we're told on those occasions.To be honest I reckon you're best off showing them some hard cost figures on fluid usage...!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 ...why does it appear to be the norm in discos up and down the country to have copious amounts of fog? ...Along with copious amounts of alcohol it increases the chances of mating. Does an abundance of fog provide a similar effect to "beer goggles"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossmck Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 Having re-read this ... incidentally according to the COSHH sheet is "suitably only for use in laboratory environment" ...... greasy residue on all the metal work after just one night which quickly catches dust ...... over extended periods it corrodes the copper wire inside an industrial size stage fan used for dispersion. ... I find myself in complete disbelief that this is being used in a public venue (!) If the bottle states "for use in laboratory environment" it is NOT safe to be used in the manner in which you're using it just now. If it can corrode copper wire what is it doing to your customers and staff ? Also, you've effectively announced in a public forum where this is being used ... :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_UniLeeds Posted March 25, 2010 Author Share Posted March 25, 2010 rossmck if you read it, the bottle doesn't state that, the COSHH sheet that was provided later does, and it also states quite clearly that apart from direct occular contact there are no adverse effects to handling or even ingesting the fluid in liquid or vapour form and I have done enough reading into the component ingredients to know that it doesn't contain anything untoward. The statement was merely made to highlight how much I would like to find a solution to this particular conundrum. The corrosion will have taken a long time and I suspect it relates to the sugar content of the fluid "Normal smoke fluid is based on a percentage of Glycol and pure water with a small amount of scent added. " and the adhesive residue it leaves as much as anything. Thanks to those who so far have offered information on other products, and to anyone who feels that I would knowingly or unknowingly put anyone's health or safety at risk (punters, crew or performers) , AND then harp on about it in a public forum I'm fairly insulted. Especially working in the kind of venues that I do. Believe me nothing relating to this product is any more or less damaging to humans than any other similar product on the market. It's just a really poor smoke fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Sorry, Mark, but your original post contained the following:We are a students union venue suite and as such the NUS passively (but very effectively) impose restrictions on certain aspects of our supply and demand chain by negotiating favourable prices with certain companies. Some years ago a local company began manufacturing "dense smoke fluid" which incidentally according to the COSHH sheet is "suitably only for use in laboratory environment". It holds for less than 5 minutes when the doors are open, the venue is full and the air con is at max. In an empty sealed venue it sometimes holds for less. It's clown shoes. It also leaves a greasy residue on all the metal work after just one night which quickly catches dust. Oh yeah and over extended periods it corrodes the copper wire inside an industrial size stage fan used for dispersion.My bold...These two statements alone give me grave cause for concern. If a substance has a COSHH sheet, then regardless of what it says or doesn't say on the bottle, THAT is what you need to heed - and ignorance of the COSHH sheet isn't an excuse, before or after the fact. If it clearly states there that it's only for lab use, then THAT is the only place it should be used! It matters not at all what you know about the ingredients. And anything that's corrosive in any way as you describe HAS GOT to be a huge red light to you and the promoters/venue management. Sorry, but in your shoes I'd be collecting up ALL bottles of this local brew and disposing of it in the proper way (according to that COSHH sheet) or locking it away in the labs. Apologies if that seems to heap additional insult to your pride but anything less, based on what you have told us, is tantamount to gross negligence!! E2A - And we've given you the solution - use a better machine to achieve the effect that you need, and buy proper fluids to suit that machine(s). Someone will HAVE to dig into their pockets - I suspect that the SU isn't that short of cash if these events are well attended - especially if they're paying pro VJs and promoters etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacet Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 I suspect that the SU isn't that short of cash if these events are well attended...Ha! You've never worked at a student union have you Ynot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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