2 mics on a kick drum

[ian hatch]

Hi all

Was at a gig over the weekend, that we were playing support at, and noticed whilst I was micing up our drum kit, that the Main Act's kick drum had 2 mics on it.

One was a Beta 52 and the other was a Flat type mic placed inside the shell, don't know what one but I'm guessing it's another Shure.

I didn't get round to asking their sound guy the reason, but it sounded brilliant though.

So my question is, what is the reason / advantages, and is this common practise, as I've only ever used one mic on our kick drum.

Am I missing a trick?

 

Cheers

Ian

[Dj Dunc]

As far as I am aware the practice gives the sound engineer more "click" of the beater on the skin (with the inside mic) and then the other mic controls the "thump". Im sure someone will be along to give a more detailed answer very soon.

 

hth

 

Dunc

[Matt Riley]

I haven't had my coffee yet, so excuse the non technical jargon The normal combination for this is a B52 in the hole to catch the woof of the kick drum, and the 91 placed closer to the beater to catch the click. If you can mix between the two, you don't have to run up to stage and change the placement to get a more clicky sound or more woofy sound. And yes, it is incredibly commonplace. If you're poor and don't have 300 quid to spend on a Beta 91, then a good alternative can be to mount an sm57/58 on the other side of the skin (ie pointed at the beater) and invert the polarity, as it does a similar job.

 

M

[Bobbsy]

Well, there's a rather bigger choice (and debate) of mics that can be used in each position, but the reason is exactly that. The one in the hole gives the big "in the gut" thump while the one pointed at the beater gives the click. By controlling the ratio of the two, you can get (hopefully) the exact sound you want.

 

Bob

[MarkPAman]

One other reason I can think of.

If one mic stops working properly for some reason, the other stops the bass drum disappearing completely from the mix, and can quickly be re-equalised to do (almost) the job that both were doing before.

[ian hatch]

Cheers guys for the replies.

I get it now, and I think I'm probably missing something from my drum sound, because I only use a Sennheiser e901 (flat type inside drum) I see most people just use a "hole type" mic which I guess is probably the better compromise if you're not going to go for the double set-up.

I'm happy with the sound I get, but never compared it with the double mic set-up, which going by Saturday's main act set-up seemed to sound a lot fuller than mine, even though both kits were practically identical.

I thinking of getting a "Hole type" mic now, and was wondering if you should always keep to the same make when micing a kick drum?

Sennheiser e902? any thoughts.

 

Ian

PS

Matt, good to get a reply from a fellow Southampton resident.

[RichM]

Beta 91 in

Audix D6 out

 

is my preferred setup for rock/pop drums

 

[Bobbsy]

A second vote for the Audix D6...except I think where it really shines is placed inside the hole. Even left without any EQ, it's the nicest kick sound I've ever found in this position.

 

Bob

[Peter F]

I get it now, and I think I'm probably missing something from my drum sound, because I only use a Sennheiser e901 (flat type inside drum) I see most people just use a "hole type" mic which I guess is probably the better compromise if you're not going to go for the double set-up.

I'm happy with the sound I get, but never compared it with the double mic set-up, which going by Saturday's main act set-up seemed to sound a lot fuller than mine, even though both kits were practically identical.

I thinking of getting a "Hole type" mic now, and was wondering if you should always keep to the same make when micing a kick drum?

Sennheiser e902? any thoughts.

 

I'm kicking myself already for replying to a kick drum (ahem Bass Drum) topic but here goes.

 

e901 is a good mic. There's no reason why you can't get a good sound just using it on its own

 

There's 2 far more important aspects to getting a decent drum sound (actually this applies to everything you put a microphone on, be it drums, guitar or ukulele)

 

1. Get the source sounding right. Tune the drum properly. Dampen the head by having a towel touching it maybe.

 

2. Mic placement. Before you spend £150 on an e902 spend some time moving the e901 around. If your bass drum isn't home to a towel or wooly jumper that you can sit the mic on then make a little cushion for it. I can highly recommend the use of a beer towel. Properly folded and gaffa taped it's perfect.

 

If you do a search on here or out in the wilderness of the internet you'll find a hundred thousand "best kick drum" topics. You won't ever get much more than strongly held opinions or brand allegiances but it might pass a few hours of your life. I'd be inclined to suggest you use what you've already got and your ears to get the sound right.

 

Oh, and remember this 1 important point.

 

The Kick drum does not have to become the focal point of the entire mix. Just because it is generally channel 1 on the desk, it does not need to be the focal point of the entire mix.

 

Just once more for front of house engineers who are hard of hearing: Your mix does not have to revolve around the kick drum. It is important, I accept that, all I ask is you don't make it your sole reason for existing.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

[Trunker]

We have and like in our studio the Sennheiser e602 which is great for kicks. D112? well, not got the bottom end that the 602 has, but good for a very clear sound. Some may argue with me on this, but being sound engineers who have played drums/percussion for a combined 52 years have been lucky to have explored and heard many drums sounds and know what we like and what sounds good.

[risc]

My double mic preference is for a condenser and a dynamic and there are many great combinations of these kinds of mics.

 

I have only ever once used a shure beta 52, this has to be, due to its size and weight of diagphram the slowest microphone on the market. I found it particularly noticable on a lot of festival footage from last year that this mic was actually managing to make the kick drum sound 'out of time' with the rest of the music, not something to be recomended.

As an engineer I choose predominately shure mics for most things and carry my own mics on the road when not mixing on my own rig.

 

Kick, Beta91, Beyer M88 (silver wind shield, new black ones are not as good)

Snr, Beta 98 Top & Btm

Hats, AKG451 ( again I find the older mics are less harsh)

Toms, Beta 98's

 

Sennheisser e902 is a good single kick mic and the audio technica dual element is worth consideration as its fixed phase relationship between the elements can be a help to anyone who doesn't understand the possible down side of double micing.

[ian hatch]

My double mic preference is for a condenser and a dynamic and there are many great combinations of these kinds of mics.

 

I have only ever once used a shure beta 52, this has to be, due to its size and weight of diagphram the slowest microphone on the market. I found it particularly noticable on a lot of festival footage from last year that this mic was actually managing to make the kick drum sound 'out of time' with the rest of the music, not something to be recomended.

As an engineer I choose predominately shure mics for most things and carry my own mics on the road when not mixing on my own rig.

 

Kick, Beta91, Beyer M88 (silver wind shield, new black ones are not as good)

Snr, Beta 98 Top & Btm

Hats, AKG451 ( again I find the older mics are less harsh)

Toms, Beta 98's

 

Sennheisser e902 is a good single kick mic and the audio technica dual element is worth consideration as its fixed phase relationship between the elements can be a help to anyone who doesn't understand the possible down side of double micing.

 

Cheers Dave for the reply.

 

Am I right in saying, if you put a mic (My e901 1/2 boundary style) inside the drum and say a D6 on the outside (hole) you wouldn't have to change any phases, as both mic are facing the same way?

The only reason I'm quirying this, is because, does a boundary style mic have a front/back?

I know, if you have two mics facing each other then one must be reversed polarity wise.

 

Ian

[MarkPAman]

Am I right in saying, if you put a mic (My e901 1/2 boundary style) inside the drum and say a D6 on the outside (hole) you wouldn't have to change any phases, as both mic are facing the same way?

 

Probably :)

 

If your desk has a polarity switch you can check this in seconds. If not, put your reversing cable at the desk end & it doesn't take much longer.

[philw44]

It's a lot easier to screw up a kick drum tone with two mics than it is to improve it in my opinion (not including studio techniques as you have more control)

 

A better way of getting more click is to tape a 2P to the beater. I wouldn't recommend micing the beater side of the kick drum. You'll have loads of snare and hi-hat bleed as well as kick pedal squeaks!

 

If the kick drum sounds crap, tuning the drum yields better results than trying to stick more mics on it :)

[mandrews101]

ive never seen that in a live event.... do it in the studio all the time, 1on axis and 1off axis.

ive done mixing for a gig where we used a radio mic n taped that to the skin of the kick drum about 3inches away , patched that into a drum machine to get a sharper attack sound, and then set up a mic inside the kick drum...