Typical Lighting Budgets

[colin_j]

Hi all Im new,

 

I am trying to compare the typical lighting budgets for two comparable productions, one say in the 1970's-80's and the other in 2009.

 

Im looking for fairly large productions that would need to rent equipment.

 

Any info would be great!!

 

Thanks

Colin

[Wilflet]

you might want to qualify 'large' to some people that mean a 1,000 capacity room, to others arena size is normal and stadiums are large.

[Guest lightnix]

Hello Colin, welcome to the Blue Room

 

What sort of productions do you mean - Theatre, TV, Exhibition, Concert Tour, Trade Show, Fashion Show, Product Launch... what???

 

I'm afraid the scope of your question, is way too wide to give a meaningful answer at the moment - sorry :P

[colin_j]

Hi, yes I did fear it would be, im looking at more theatre productions.

 

I am doing an assignment for university on the patt 23 and its history, however I would like to compare it to the source 4 junior (being the modern equivalent), I would like to compare how attitude to lighting and thus budgets have changed.

 

So im after a budget for say a rig including patt 23's would of been back then, and how much a rig including source 4 jr's would be now?

 

Thanks

Colin

[Iain Mac]

Hi everyone first post. Yay!

 

I am doing the same assignment as Colin so this information will help me greatly too.

 

I found it surprising how difficult it is to find information on the history of any stage lighting. Or am I just looking in the wrong places. I chose a strand light because the strand archive seems to be the best place for information that I can find.

 

If anyone can suggest some more sources of information (especially books because we have to reference several sources) we would appreciate it a lot.

 

Thanks

Iain

[paulears]

I love the idea that choosing a topic for higher level academic study is based on the research somebody at another university did, and is freely available.

 

Somewhere I have a hire price list for Strand kit - dated probably early 70s. If I get a chance I may be able to find it, and scan it, and let you have it, For £25 I'll write it all up if you like, and give you a copy each - then you won't need to do any work at all for your degree.

 

 

Sorry guys, but when people come on and ask for specifics, we do help - but two people popping up doing the exact same topic, both wanting information that with a little effort could easily be found. I know plenty of universities with excellent library resources where this kind of data is filed away for students to re-discover. It just takes effort and time. If somebody gives you a budget, how will you cite it and check for accuracy? Join the ALD, attend a few meetings, get to know people and then your research might actually be rewarding.

[dbuckley]

But it would be unfair to compare a show of the era of 23s with something modern.

 

Heres a start though - go to your library and get Reid's standard work on stage lighting, and hope the library has an older edition, and in there I'm pretty sure is a plan for a full scale musical from the old Strand days gone by.

 

For a modern musical get a ticket to any west end show and count stuff.

 

And Paul's plan is flawed - in the era of turnitin you cant have both students submit the same paper...

[Don Allen]

You need to look at not only the change in lights, but also the change in ticket prices, tv rights, budgets etc. It is not a fair comparison.

 

Do more research and seek clarification of what is wanted.

 

Here is a link to 30 Year History of Rock Lighting and Sound in Australia. Early Australian Lighting.

 

Sunbury, which was one of Australia's first big outdoor concerts had Patt 45's as foot lights, Patt on mirror balls and a few Par 64 out front.

 

(I went to the 1972 weekend.)

[paulears]

It's also worth noting the relative cost of the equipment, compared say, to the average weekly wage then, and now. Some things, in fact quite a lot have come down in price drastically. Lanterns costing many time the weekly wage I got, compared to a small proportion now, and controls were amazingly expensive. So you could almost make a case that movers so common now, could not have been used then, even if they'd been invented because no show could afford them. This could be a subject all on it's own.

[tony g]

Hi, yes I did fear it would be, im looking at more theatre productions.

 

I am doing an assignment for university on the patt 23 and its history, however I would like to compare it to the source 4 junior (being the modern equivalent), I would like to compare how attitude to lighting and thus budgets have changed.

 

So im after a budget for say a rig including patt 23's would of been back then, and how much a rig including source 4 jr's would be now?

 

Thanks

Colin

 

 

Hi Colin

 

Have a look at the Strand Archive, there are hire prices quoted against some of the items that were current in 1970-ish. I have a Major equipment catalogue for 1967 open in front of me and they wanted £10/10s for their M5 (equivalent to the patt23) to buy new, compare that with an S5, a standard PC spot at £7/10s without reflector or £8/5s with, step up a gear and a M10 (1 kw patt23 if you will, no direct strand equivalent existed) is £60, all thats a lot of money for the time!, now there are no listed prices for complete control systems of the pro variety, but a single "way" module for a choke type dimmer console (ie 1 cannel) was £158, a complete 24 way slider panel could be had for £75/10s without dimmers which would cost £5/10s each.

 

Of course the Patt 23 was cunning in that it made use of high pressure die castings that are cheap to produce (if you do enough) and have a very good finish, both the main competitors, Major & Furse used sand casting, spinning and drawing, these are more costly and all require extra finishing operations that add to factory costs.

 

Some facts that may be of interest : the Patt 23 was designed by aircraft designer Morgan Mcleod along with most of strands kit of the period with Fred Bentham doing the technical side. The original Patt23 was made by Sparkletts (who made soda syphons) as they were the only firm with die casting lines that could do such a large item, later the Utility cycle co took over and finally they were produced by Bell&Howell in gloucester after the Rank merger of 1967. The original version of the Patt123 is directly based on the 23 and uses the same main body casting. Strand also produced an extractor fan for fitting in kitchen windows that made use of the same manufacturing process c1966 (their only departure from stage work as far as I know).

 

hope something in there is of use

[paulears]

Tony - do you have any pictures/line drawings of the 123 you mention, I've never seen one of these, just the usual one? I can't quite picture it? Did it have a fixed lamp/reflector then a moving lens? Interesting?

[tony g]

Tony - do you have any pictures/line drawings of the 123 you mention, I've never seen one of these, just the usual one? I can't quite picture it? Did it have a fixed lamp/reflector then a moving lens? Interesting?

 

 

Hi Paul

 

Sorry I have no pic. Have a look at the strand archive, under patt 123, there is a pess advert from TABS showing a gent focussing a 123, thats the mk1, it's discernable from the others because you will see the centre portion os the body of a 23 back to front, a casting then holds the lens, hinged at the top and fixed at the bottom with a thumb nut, the back is another casting that covers where the lens tube goes on a 23.

 

There are then 3 more standard versions, mk2 we all know, mk3 defined from mk2 by having a built in cord grip and slightly deeper logo milling (later versions of these are green) and mk4 that has the "gongman" logo on the back and a suitcase catch where the earlier catch was (these were made at the B&H works)

 

Then there are two further versions, a version with leadscrew focus of the mk2 and a version of the mk2 on a polestar bracket with key adjustments for a TV studio.

 

Tony

[kerry davies]

Other way round, Paul. http://www.strandarchive.co.uk/lanterns/p123.html

 

Ooops. gazumped.

[tony g]

And I should add that the last version of the 123 also has a big bakelite lock off knob rather than the alloy wing nut.

 

 

Purely for the benefit of the chaps doing the project, and anyone else interested in the 23 it came in the following varients

 

mk1 - Sand cast (prototype only)

mk1 - production model, single colour runners on early versions, double later and thereafter, no cord grip

mk1b- as above but with faceted reflector

mk2- similar to mk1, but more defined logo milling and built in cord grip (later versions are green)(very late versions have bakelite lock off)

 

Furse model is a mk1 but with FURSE cast into back

Thorn model is a green mk2 with thorn logo stuck over strand logo (sold with thorn Q file desks, c1980)

 

mk1 N is simply a replacement front end, conical in shape to give a narrow beam, a handle and offset bracket could convert this into a small followspot

mk2 N is a much more refined purpose built narrow profile that uses the same lamphousing

 

shutters were made to fit both mk1 & 2

 

The lampholder on a mk2 has a thicker wall and elevated rim to comply with changed regs

 

Also no research into patt23 is complete without looking at the patt93, a beautiful followspot that pre-dates the 23 but on which it's styling is based

[paulears]

Thanks for those links - how odd? I've never seen that version, my memory starting with the leadscrew version of the Mk2, then all after that with the black bakelite knob for focus. The chronology is interesting because I'd not realised the missing bits, and the great concept of using an existing pattern, and just modifying it into a Fresnel is novel.

 

Now this is the sort of research that obviously means something - maybe our students should look at something like this where evidence is available, rather than the abstract notion of basing research on lighting rigs that require estimation on costs, and no real budgets are available - and perhaps even when they are, may not mean very much as a comparison. It would be a little like comparing the costs of a Model T Ford, with something current - is there a need for the research. Looking at this 'evolved' topic - I for one would love to read an accurate chronology of model to model, with dates when production changed, and perhaps the reasoning behind the changes.

 

I've actually still got a working Patt. 93 in the store, and the similarity in design hadn't really occurred to me. A nicely balanced followspot, but the panel near the iris lever was amazingly hot!