Get out clause

[DanYates]

Hi my name is Dan Yates, and im doing some research into the bectu get out clause in theatres, which is that to work a get in you have to work the out, but the out is not included in the number of hours that you work, and generally finding out how its affecting technicians and crew.

 

Any input would be greatly helpful.

[Ynot]

I think you may need to be a little more specific in what you're asking...

Do you have a link to a page which specifies in detail what this clause is? (To save us all Googling the BECTU pages...)

 

I know that the big receiving venue I work as a casual in brings as many people in as are required for either ins or outs - and the two teams can use the same bodies or a totally different crew... I guess it depends on availability to a great extent.

 

Practically, however, I'd say that a good core of the get-in crew would be necessary for the out crew - just for logistical reasons. They would normally be in addition of course to the production tech staff. It's also common for many of the crew running the show during performance to NOT be on the out - for obvious reasons.

[Tom]

There is (or always was) a BECTU clause which stated (if I remember correctly) that you had to call the same number (or more) of crew for the Get Out as you did for the Get In (we're talking touring shows here). There was also a policy of give crew who worked the in the right to work the out. I don't think though that it was compulsory.

 

The reason (again, I believe) for this was that Get In were/are paid at a not very attractive single time rate, where as the out was/is paid at a very enhanced rate. This acted as a form of compensation.

 

I'm not sure what the OP means about the out not being included in the number of hours you work - except that the hours would be treated as overtime and therefore would not be included in the 40 hours of standard time covered by a full time contract.

 

(I'm thinking somebody like Gareth, who I assume is on a Bectu contract might be much better at the back ground now).

 

So - I guess that if you're on a full time BECTU contract, you could end up working your 40hrs in the week and then feeling obliged (to make ends meet, or just for operational reasons) to work an additional four or eight or more hours on a Saturday night. Which makes a long week.

 

Is that what your asking about???

 

T?

[DanYates]

Yes thats great thank you very much.

[iains]

Having worked in receiving houses for a number of years in the past my understanding of get in & get out is this; depending on when the get in is, for instance a Sunday or an overnight it will be paid at the appropriate rate, if it is on a weekday then overtime payments will kick in when the requisite number of hours are worked on any one day. Traditionally the get out was totally separate from the hours worked for the theatre. By this I mean your contracted hours with the theatre finished at curtain down on last night, you then worked for the touring company "getting out" their scenery and equipment, loading same onto transport. Yes the get out was paid at an enhanced rate either flat fee or hourly rate. Most of the companies preferred a flat fee, since the crew received the same amount whether the out took 2 hours or 5 hours, if it was an hourly rate it could be strung it out. There is also the issue of ease of access to venues, a theatre with a lift will require double handling leading to longer ins and outs. A flat fee would work against a crew with a difficult access since they work longer hours for the same fee. The BECTU rates reflect this in the scales for various theatres over the country, I remember when the rates were first introduced, HM Inspector of taxes as it was then, and wondering why the union would allow a difference in the get out rate for theatres or venues of less than 500 seats and theatres with over 500 seats, I might be wrong but I have never seen a seat move on it's own let alon pick up a flat and load it in a wagon. However it has been a couple of years since I had my eyes tested so it is possible I missed that. Hmmm wonder how much seats make an hour.

 

Iains

[gareth]

The BECTU get-out rates don't differ for different theatres. Yes, there's a 'half-rate' of 50% of the agreed hourly get-out rate for theatres with less than 500 seats - but there certainly isn't a locally-agreed rate which varies from theatre to theatre. The BECTU/TMA get-out rate is what it is, and that's that. By the by, did you also know that if a production visiting a small theatre which uses the 50% get-out rate has arrived from, and is going on to, a theatre with more than 500 seats then the full BECTU rate applies to that get-out regardless of the theatre's size? (Well, that certainly used to be the case - I'm assuming it still is.)

 

I've never, in 16 years, worked a BECTU-rate get-out which has a 'flat fee' arrangement. That's not to say that occasionally a company manager won't verbally agree some sort of 'buy-out' arrangement with the local crew, but it doesn't happen often and is never an official agreement between company and venue.

 

As for theatres with difficult access - that's one of the reasons that a 'flat fee' sort of scenario simply wouldn't work.

 

To respond to one of the points in Dan's original post - it certainly isn't the case that a member of staff "has to work the get-in to be able to work the get-out". It is, however, a generally-accepted courtesy that the crew who work the get-in will get first refusal on the get-out, and that the visiting company will call the same number of local staff for the out as they did for the in.

[iains]

I did not say the BECTU rate was a flat fee, before the BECTU rates came in there was a flat fee usually negotiated by the company manager and the resident stage manager to cover the get out. And also it was normal to ask the members of the "in" crew to do the out, occasionally more people were called for the out but all were paid the same amount for this

 

Iains

[Kenneth McAllister]

In my experience here in the Sherman in Cardiff, the larger viscos generally state in their riders that they want the same crew for the out as for the in. I presume that is because people will have a basic idea of how the set goes together/comes apart, and also what is likely to go where in the pack.

 

Never seen or heard of a flat-fee arrangement, and I've never seen anyone try to string the work out to earn an extra half an hour... at 3am in the morning after having worked 6 hours to get a show out, the only thing you're focussed on is getting home to bed!

 

Btw, after every 3 hours worked a BECTU get-out includes a 30min paid rest break, which can be either taken or paid in lieu. After one 6hr out, I had a bit of a job explaining to the visiting TSM that his out was going to cost him 7hrs!

[andy_s]

Gareth may not have come across the flat fee arrangement in 16 years, but I've been doing it a bit longer, and as resident stage manager at a west-country theatre in the mid eighties, I would reguarly negotiate the get-out fee with the visiting company manager over a pint (they bought!) after curtain up on the thursday evening (to give them time to go to the bank on the friday). I'd base my position regarding a fair price on how complex the get-in had been, how heavy the set was, whether there was a lot of extra sound or LX kit, and previous experience with that company. The company manager would counter by saying "well they did it in less than 2 hours last week". I might respond with "well if we do it quicker, you get home sooner and that must be worth the extra"....We'd come to an agreement in about 5 minutes then enjoy the rest of our pint.

 

apocryphally, in some theatres the fee was dependant on how many pieces you wanted your set to be in when it went back in the wagon - the lower the fee, the more pieces!

 

this was usually cash in hand of course.

 

It was quite fun, and I generally got on quite well with the visiting CSMs, but I don't mean to suggest this is the best way of going about it....

 

As others have said, the arrangements financial and otherwise are now much more official and well-documented, including the TMA BECTU code of practice for get outs which addresses the various H&S issues, and would suggest that the get-out crew may need to be different to the get-in crew, depending on scheduling, requirements for statutory breaks and so on.

 

As to how this affects technicians; traditionally the cash to pay for the get out came from the visiting company so effectively the workers were local casual staff hired by the viitors, even if their "day job" was with the theatre, so of course get out hours didn't accrue to weekly hours. Now this is different, as the get out payment would be paid through the usual payroll arrangements and subject to tax and NI, and then recharged to the visitors as a contra. However hours worked would still not be accrued to the normal working week, as they would usually be worked at times not included in the standard contract hours, which think are between 8.00am to 11.00pm monday to saturday, though I haven't read the BECTU agreement for a while.So the employer could still require 39 hours of work between monday and saturday, with the employee opting to do the get-out overtime, but the employer not entitled to insist that they do the extra work, overtime of course being voluntary, though as others have said, from a financial point of view not really optional! As you will see in many job adverts, a salary is quoted PLUS get-outs - as these payments are for overtime, the employer isn't allowed to include it to quote a higher salary, but they draw attention to it as the pretty low basic salaries usually offered for technical staff would be enough to put off a lot of applicants.

 

To take a very cynical point of view, my concern here would be that I suppose it would be conceivable for unscrupulous managements to pay technicians at the normal overtime rate and recharge the company at the enhanced get-out rate. I should say this is hypothetical - I don't know of this happening, and I hope BECTU would be quick to deal with it if it did....

[jonathanhill]

Whilst I have never had done a cash get-out, I have always been in venues where the get-out has been as per the BECTU/TMA agreement (we used to add 11% NI and VAT onto the recharge total, you can't do that if the get-out is paid in cash!) I have heard of the mythical beast. Indeed, a colleague used to make enough for week to week living from the cash get-out to save most of his monthly salary untouched. Unfortunately those days are mostly done for theatre, a little bit of it probably still exists in rock 'n' roll.

As for the BECTU/TMA get-out rate being the same everywhere, that is not strictly true. There are still two venues in the UK that have a different scale and minimum length when compared to the standard agreement. They have a minimum four hour get-out rather than the standard two hour minimum and the rate is higher.

[andy_s]

if the theatre is paying the bill, then they have to pay VAT on the income that they are generating by providing a service to the visiting company. This money of course goes to HMRC, and the visiting company may be able to reclaim it depending on their VAT status. It doesn't really affect the money paid to the technician, though of course it increases the cost of the get-out to the visiting company substantially if they aren't able to reclaim it.

[jonathanhill]

To take a very cynical point of view, my concern here would be that I suppose it would be conceivable for unscrupulous managements to pay technicians at the normal overtime rate and recharge the company at the enhanced get-out rate. I should say this is hypothetical - I don't know of this happening, and I hope BECTU would be quick to deal with it if it did....

 

This does happen, believe you me. At some of the big number one touring houses.

[iains]

I would be interested to know which of the number 1 touring houses were not paying the get out rate but charging the visiting companies for it, I have nearly 30 years in the industry and the original thought behind get out fees was to raise the wages which as we all know are on the low side. Technicians were contracted by the theatre to work for the theatre up to curtain down on the last performance, they then became "employed" by the visiting management who are responsible for the get out payment. The visiting company will have budgeted for the get out payment and for a theatre managment to withold the full fee seems to me how shall I put it both fraudulent and a breach of the BECTU/TMA agreement unless there is a specific buy out clause in a local or house contract. I think you will also find that there more than two theatres with local get out agreements. I was on the original BECTU theatre commitee when we negotiated the get out clause back in the '80's and theatres which traditionally had high get out payments and those with a difficult access eg. a lift were considered special cases and payment rates were therefore enhanced.

 

Iains

[woodbutcher]

The only time I have come across some form of "Flat Fee" Get Outs was when I used to tour. We, and alot of other tours, (although not so much now due to the recession) used to offer buy outs in the style of "it takes 4 hours, I'll guarantee 5" which meant the crew were 1/2 hour up straight away, and would be paid 5 hours minimum. this was then an incentive to get the show out quicker, as paid sleep is better than unpaid sleep! obviously this was a gentlemans agreement between resident and touring stage managers, and worked in everyone's favour. this wasn't offered every week, and was venue specific, dependant on ease of access etc........ you could sometimes save money on this one, by convincing local crews that the show took alot less time than normal to get out, and by offering a guarantee, they work harder!!!!!

[janderton]

I would be interested to know which of the number 1 touring houses were not paying the get out rate but charging the visiting companies for it, I have nearly 30 years in the industry and the original thought behind get out fees was to raise the wages which as we all know are on the low side. Technicians were contracted by the theatre to work for the theatre up to curtain down on the last performance, they then became "employed" by the visiting management who are responsible for the get out payment. The visiting company will have budgeted for the get out payment and for a theatre managment to withold the full fee seems to me how shall I put it both fraudulent and a breach of the BECTU/TMA agreement unless there is a specific buy out clause in a local or house contract. I think you will also find that there more than two theatres with local get out agreements. I was on the original BECTU theatre commitee when we negotiated the get out clause back in the '80's and theatres which traditionally had high get out payments and those with a difficult access eg. a lift were considered special cases and payment rates were therefore enhanced.

 

Iains

 

There is a certain theatre just outside London along the M40 that the Local Crew told me that they were paid there standard overtime rate as per there in house contractc but the venue put the full tma rate on the contra.