OGGY Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Hello, I'm having trouble getting my head around whether the following is possible given the limitations on frequencies. We already utilise 6 Shure PGX Wireless micophone systems for a 13 piece function type band. The wireless mics are used for the 4 Vocalists and 2 sax players. We have an ongoing issue generating enough monitor level for the vocalists, particularly in smaller venues where stage space is limited and the vocalists end up with a six piece horn section playing into the back of their heads. There's also a drummer and aux percussionist who seem to compete with eachother on "who can hit their cymbols the hardest and the most times during a show". All attempts with repositioning people / equipment on stage and explaining to everyone their impact on the issue haven't been very successful and hence the subject of IEM's has been an ongoing discussion which people believe to be the holy grail solution. Personally I'm not convinced but that's a different matter. Of course each singer wants their own monitor mix which we can accomodate from a mixing desk perspective however I don't think we can successfully operate 6 wireless mics and 4 IEM systems without getting into buying licences. As I understand it, you have to buy the licence for each venue location for a specific date which would make it prohibitive for us. Looking at the Audio Technica M2 / M3 IEM systems they quote that upto 10 systems can be utilised simultaneously and Shure quote 12 for the PGX, so have I misunderstood something, is there a way to have the 6 mic's and 4 IEM's without licencing issues? If it is possible, How? If not, anyother thoughts on the monitor issue? Current vocal monitoring is provided by 3 SRM450's, is that part of the problem? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Riley Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'd get the horns above the vocalists if I couldn't get them not playing at their heads another way. Maybe look at being able to provide enough of a raised platform to get those pesky brass instruments pointing at the audience and not at the vox. IEM would be one solution, although it's certainly not a holy grail. I'll start by saying what I always say. Shell out 10 quid on hiring a couple of graphic eqs and experiment with ringing out the mackies. You are guaranteed to notice a big improvement. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Well - your 6 mics you have already don't fit in the unregulated free bit, so you should have a license. If you go to the JFMG website all will become clear. You need the PMSE license which will let you use them at multiple sites as you please. This will do the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieR Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 To expand on the license issue, there are three main classifications: Deregulated - a small band of frequencies that are available license free (UHF 863 to 865 MHz)Shared - a set of 14 UHF frequencies available for use anywhere in the UK by any license holder. (Also VHF sets available)Coordinated - Fixed frequencies at a fixed site for a fixed period. Exclusive use for the license holder. What you will need is a Shared license which (IIRC) is an annual fee of approx £90. Not that much really. Note: OFCOM is changing the rules with regards to frequency availability and equipment purchased now may not be legal when changes come into force in 2012. There is supposed to be some form of compensation package but we are still awaiting details of this. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndenim Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Just my opinion, but If I have purchased 10 wireless mics and I can use them all at once on UHF why the hell do I need a licence??? It's only low range anyway, what difference does it make?IMO it's just another way to steal money from people trying to make a living.OK, rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Because those frequencies you use at the moment can be sold to mobile phone companies for lots of money then you will not be able to use them. This would be less likely to happen if everybody payed up as they should :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljoshua Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 So OFCOM can actually see how many people actually need the spectrum they are selling off? I own and use 3 UHF Mics and a Shared Licence. I could use them if the de-reg frequencies, but at gigs where I am there with only one of many bands, I like the re-assurance that if they turn up with a cheap Mic and turn it on backstage, it is less likely to affect any of my Mics on stage. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Just my opinion, but If I have purchased 10 wireless mics and I can use them all at once on UHF why the hell do I need a licence???Hmmm...Why do you need a TV license?Why do you need a road fund license?Why do you need a driving license?Why do you need a fishing license?etc etc. Short answer - because it's the law.You can do ANY one of the above without a paper authorising you to do so, but are committing an offense if you do.OK - maybe using a non-licensed mic isn't as serious as driving without, but the principle is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyP1955 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Have a meeting with everyone but the cymbal bashers. If you can reach a consensus, the rest of the band can then tell the problem persons to learn to play as the band requires, or they are free to depart. If it is there as it is here, there are plenty of drummers looking for a gig. Finding one who plays instead of bashes is the hard part. (IME, the purpose of most percussionists would seem to be to ****-up the groove of the tunes, so I would not see him leaving as a loss :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGGY Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Thanks everyone for your responses. I've now sorted out a shared licence via the JMFG website, as we like to keep everything above board especially when you consider the licence fee involved. So just to make sure I'm clear (before I let people spend a significant amount of money), with the licence having the 6 mics and 4 IEM's is possible? Thanks again. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 So just to make sure I'm clear (before I let people spend a significant amount of money), with the licence having the 6 mics and 4 IEM's is possible?I recall Sennheiser recommending that you keep radio mics and wireless IEMs at least one TV channel (8MHz) apart. As the shared licence only covers one TV channel, it's not possible to follow that particular recommendation but in practice you're unlikely to encounter problems. Bear in mind that mixing different makes of wireless systems isn't always ideal - allow plenty of time before your first gig with the new setup to troubleshoot any problems - it's rare that all 14 of the shared frequencies can be used simultaneously so it may take some juggling before you find a set of 10 that all play together nicely with your particular combination of equipment. 861.550 is the one I always avoid; I would probably start with the IEMs in the highest remaining four frequencies with the mics on the lowest six. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Alcock Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Mark, Yes it is. With your license, you're now free to use both the deregulated and shared frequencies. Just set your IEM and radio mics to a selection of those frequencies and all should be well. Bear in mind that as you're using kit by two manufacturers, you are not guaranteed that they'll happily co-exist on the first frequencies you pick. There is the phenomenon known as intermodulation (interference caused by RF carrier frequencies "beating" together) which occasionally rears its ugly head. A tool like this: Audio Technica Frequency Checker is invaluable and my experience is that if this says it's OK, then it has always worked. Despite all this, I really would explore sorting out the traditional monitoring first. Also could the vocalists move a bit, say in front of the quieter saxes rather than the brass? I work with big bands, and with the levels the instruments alone (particularly brass) produce on stage, I'm glad I'm 20m out front. Pete. Sorry Shez - beat me to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGGY Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Thanks again for the assistance on this........... Pete, you're right about trying to arrange the location of everyone on stage to minimise the issue, space in the smaller venues often limits the options. On Saturday had the "fortune" to have to mix FOH from the side of the stage, band squeezed in to the point where people couldn't move past eachother, percussionists playing like they were on stage at Wembley, not to mention the horns. Needless to say it wasn't a pleasant experience, add in a photographer who pulled out the plug powering one side of FOH as "he needed to charge his camera" made it a night to forget! Using IEM's would free up some floor space as an additional benefit Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Hope-Streeter Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Hmmm...<br />Why do you need a TV license?<br />Why do you need a road fund license?<br />Why do you need a driving license?<br />Why do you need a fishing license?<br />etc etc.<br /><br />Short answer - because it's the law.<br />You can do ANY one of the above without a paper authorising you to do so, but are committing an offense if you do.<br />OK - maybe using a non-licensed mic isn't as serious as driving without, but the principle is there.<br /> A TV license is a programme fee - it pays for the BBC.A Road Fund license pays for the construction, maintenance and upkeep of the roads you use.A fishing license pays for stocking the lake with fish for you to catch and for looking after them.These are all payments for actual tangible goods or services. And a driving license is a certificate of competence and proof you have passed a test, without which you might not be safe. However, a radio mic licence is different. The radio spectrum is an intangible natural resource which does not have to be "provided" or built, and can not be "owned". The lower frequencies, with long and international range, have to be administered on an internaitonal basis to avoid interference. But low power radio mics operating at UHF / VHF have a very short range and are not a protected service, and there is no enforcement (hence no cost of enforcement) of any regulations concerning their use. So the only cost involved is that of administering the license itself. Something of a paradox, no? These frequencies have, until now, been made available at minimum cost for the general public good. But in New Britain, that is no longer a valid concept. Everything has to be bought and sold as part of a "market", with its (alleged) value based on whatever a City speculator might be willing to pay for its exclusive use. What will they auction off next? The right to control the use of sunlight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Erm, fishing license doesn't pay to stock waters.... Your ticket to fish that water does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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