Bad Venue + Bagpipes....

[Ali2580]

Basically at the end of June I am doing sound for a charity show. The usual variety of singing, dancing....

 

One of the acts however is two people playing bagpipes and this is in a venue which has MAJOR issues with echo. Even Apex Acoustics have said that it is one of the worst venues they have ever worked in.

 

Is there anything I can do to stop what is going to be a really bad noise coming from the bagpipes?

 

P.S. the sound equipment hired is already £250 so trying not to spend lots of cash. Or anymore even....

[mr_towers]

Where is the venue? And do the bagpipes really need amplifying? If you do amplify you'll probably make the problem worse.

[paulears]

I assume you mean reverberation rather than specific echo? Reverb and any echo make a mess out of speech, but will probably help the bagpipes. Think organ music in a cathedral. Huge amounts of reverb that make anybody speaking unintelligable, but the organ music sounds great. Bagpipes won't need amplifying anyway - they are amazingly loud, and many folk consider that they make a bad sound no matter where they are played. If you do need to amplify them, they are a total pain. I worked a few years ago with a rock band who had a piper for the intro, and they had to mike up all the drones with a mic each, and the chanter had small gooseneck taped to it. Sounded grim, I thought. For recording a more distant mic setup works, but these are useless for PA.

 

Are you really sure you have a problem in the first place, and if the venue is that grim, then I'd suggest the bagpipes are the least of your worries.

[bruce]

For all but the largest indoor venues, the pipes (I'm assuming full highland pipes here, rather than smallpipes) will not need amplification. (unless it's a RHCP-style band). Indeed, any attempt to amplify them will make the problem worse. From memory, a single set of pipes can generate around 110dBa, measured at the player's ear.

 

They don't call them "agony bags" for nothing...

 

If the pipers know what they're doing, they may stop one or more of the drones. Or they may not.

[Ali2580]

It's not really an issue of amplifying the bagpipes as you have all said, it's just the venue. Think a massive hall (both long and height wise) with no absorbtion for the acoustics at all.

 

I agree that the pipes are loud enough, but I fear that the noise that will be produced is just going to echo majorly. Would I be right and is there anything I can do?

 

Apex tried using reverb before but they said even then, it only cuts it a small bit.

[paulears]

You are a bit confused here. If the venue has a distinct echo, then adding reverb is not going to make it better - thats a very strange thing to even consider. You have a reflection issue causing time delays - if we use the moment when instead of just a smearing effect, we start to be able to define a proper start to the reflected sound as the point where we can call it echo, then this as we've said, will probably make the pipes sound better - not worse. So the sound will have reflections - but they'll be a combination of reverb and echo - but these are not always destructive to every sound source.

 

What is the problem with the acoustics and the pipes? Has somebody told you something we don't know?

[J Pearce]

Actually if the venue has a number of pronounced hard echoes then adding reverb could help to subjectively smooth these out and create a more natural sound.

[Killyp]

I suspect when Apex Acoustics say 'worst' venues, they mean 'acoustically horrible sounding'. Some venues have a completely uncontrollable acoustic, but it's pleasant nonetheless.

 

The only thing I can think is to try experimenting with something to absorb the sound, not around the room, but around the player - think like the glass barriers you see around drummers. Usually reflections off the ceiling are the most disturbing (assuming the natural room acoustics are of the hideous variety), so something above, and possibly behind the player to stop the amount of 'upwards-firing' sound.

 

Then again, I've never actually worked with bagpipes, so I'm assuming that the sound emanates from them relatively uniformly once you get a metre or two away...

[J Pearce]

Whilst I understand your approach, how does a drum screen absorb sound?

[bruce]

Then again, I've never actually worked with bagpipes,

 

Then perhaps you should leave it to those who have rather than speculating

 

Paul's analogy above is very good - venues that are appalingly bad for speech can sound fantastic for certain types of music - the organ in the cathedral being the classic example. An "echoy" venue will probably not be a bad environment for pipes.

 

I'm not a huge fan of great (highland) pipes, especially indoors -I think they sound best from a couple of fields away - but some of the most memorable indoor performances I've heard have been in churches and similar venues.

 

I've yet to hear a bagpipe performance where a drum screen would make any difference at all, improvement or otherwise. And bear in mind that finding a piper who stays in one place while playing is very unusual. Most like to wander about - it's the "pipe band" background, they like to march...

[Killyp]

Whilst I understand your approach, how does a drum screen absorb sound?

 

I don't literally mean a drum screen, more thinking of placing barriers around the musicians. Obviously a piece of glass/perspex isn't going to absorb any sound whatsoever. I was thinking more along the lines of a great big reflexion filter, maybe I didn't quite word my post correctly.

 

 

Then again, I've never actually worked with bagpipes,

 

Then perhaps you should leave it to those who have rather than speculating

 

And there is harm in speculating in what way?

[Rob_Beech]

And this great big reflexion (sic) filter is going to be what material and colour. I somehow doubt that anyone would find being surrounded with a bunch of grey opaque boards being too pleasant.

 

 

Remember, the definition of a true gentleman is one who can play the bagpipes, and doesn't.

[paulears]

Go to the I-tunes music store and search for Flower of Scotland (The Scots Anthem) by Pipe Major Jim Drury & Julia McGurk Pipes and loads of swampy reverb, Stop worrying. If it was a singer with clever lyrics or someone reading verse, then you'd have real issues - but for instruments? There are very few instruments that don't sound superficially better with reverb and delay. It does blur articulation to a degree, but the general effect is pleasing - as everyone is saying.

[Bobbsy]

Pipes are designed so their sound carries for (literally) miles through the glens of the highlands. You won't need any amplification.

 

Similarly, they sound their best (if that's not an oxymoron) when they're echoing off the stone cliffs of Glencoe. Don't worry about the reverb in the room--for once it'll work in your favour.

 

Bob

[Killyp]

And this great big reflexion (sic) filter is going to be what material and colour. I somehow doubt that anyone would find being surrounded with a bunch of grey opaque boards being too pleasant.

 

 

Remember, the definition of a true gentleman is one who can play the bagpipes, and doesn't.

 

 

Well there would be a problem in the visual sense.

 

Still, that's my 2.c worth - I'd try and reduce reflections esp. upwards if the room's acoustics are nasty. Bobbsy is almost certainly on the money though (as you would expect).