Stutwo Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Our College is curently undergoing planning for a new install. We've known it was coming for a couple of years so have detailed plans for a completely new lighting infrastructure to be suspended from the roof structure. Our auditorium ceiling has boards containing asbestos, as well as the roof girders clad (and I believe sprayed underneath that) in the same low-grade asbestos. Our current rig has bars suspended from fixings into joists through the asbestos panelling, installed well before my time and inadequate for a modern performance venue (One PWB of six circuits and 3 unwired bars). Our site manager and anyone else involved at the college assumed this asbestos would all be removed in the refurb given that this is a "School for the future". Turns out we were all wrong. With this being a BSF build and profit margins to protect, the contractors revealed this week that they intend to leave the roof entirely alone, paint it to seal it and not touch it in any other way and leave the asbestos presumably for someone else in the future. They are sure that their theatre consultant will find a way to work around this problem. Now, my question is this, how on earth can a new lighting infrastructure be put in a building where: a) We cannot consider attaching anything to the roof structure as it would mean disturbing the asbestos (their words). b) We will not be using anything ground-supported, as there isn't the space for it. We have considered some alternatives, such as spanning from wall to wall, but the space is 20m wide and that seems to bring with it it's own problems. We have asked to speak to their consultant (from a firm in Yorkshire who I won't name) Has anyone come across anything similar and come up with a workable solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Tough one. I wouldn't presume to suggest how you might practically solve the suspension issue, but the advice given by the HSE is very much geared towards keeping asbestos sealed in situ, rather than disturbing it and paying a lot of money to screen off the area, send in the men in spacesuits, then remove and clean up every last asbestos fibre with a HEPA filter vacuum cleaner.... However, the number of teachers affected by asbestos (read "dying of...") is increasing. It will affect pupils too. See articles like this and this. The cost of removal can be high, but the cost in human suffering is far higher - albeit deferred many years, so - conveniently - we don't have to worry about it straight away.... If your asbestos is simply asbestos cement, make sure it doesn't get abraded or broken. If it's in fibrous form, I would be campaigning to have it assessed and removed - not for lighting purposes, but simply to remove the potential for harm. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Your first link appears dead Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I agree with Simon - this is a "Someone Else's Problem". Your requirements are very simple - a lighting infrastructure up in the roof. That's one of the mandatory requirements of the build. It's up to the contractor and consultant to find a support mechanism that meets your operational needs. Personally, I'm a bit surprised that it's being left - the usual mantra is to leave it in place, sealed, during minor refurbs, but removal during major refurb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robloxley Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 maybe you don't need to remove it all, just in selected areas to put in hanging points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutwo Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 maybe you don't need to remove it all, just in selected areas to put in hanging points? My understanding of it is that if they touch it at all, that's when it all kicks off in terms of sealing the building, negative air pressure areas etc. I hope I'm wrong. Thanks for the replies so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Your first link appears dead Simon. It was a newspaper article - this site should provide some good background (and did link to the article earlier), and (naturally) the HSE have got plenty of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 For a somewhat less "Scaremongering" take on asbestos, have a look at the Asbestos Watchdog site. The stuff CAN be nasty, and needs careful consideration over how to deal with it. In Stu's case, I'd be after getting rid of it. (Based only on the info here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Andrew, An interesting site (needs to be this link though). Years ago, I was an analyst in an environmental consultancy. We sent suspected asbestos off to another lab which had the expertise to formally identify different asbestos types. Asbestos cement products never caused us or our customers much of a problem - simple bagging (whilst minimising unnecessary breakage) was sufficient, and the material could go to land fill. The debate is over whether 'viable' asbestos fibres can exist in asbestos cement - and it seems if the two sides can't quite agree... However, colour was not a good guide to identifying asbestos type. When you look at pure geological specimens (we did keep them in sealed boxes!) the white brown and blue fibres were clear to see. When mixed up with a binder to wrap around heating pipes etc. it was much harder. I can sympathise with the approach taken by Asbestos Watchdog, and no doubt there is plenty of scope for fleecing unsuspecting building owners. What that site does somewhat (indirectly) minimise is the injustice and suffering experienced by those who worked in or near asbestos related industries, the years of legal wrangles trying to get sensible compensation for victims before they died of mesothelioma and the tricks employed by British and South African firms to evade responsibility. Having said that, it seems that changes by the Scottish Parliament to provide compensation for people who have pleural plaques through possible asbestos exposure are being challenged by insurers. To the OP, much of this is academic - if there is fibrous material around the structure (as seems to be implied) then any removal would have to follow the full spacesuit procedure. Either way - we are not on site and we are not environmental consultants with corresponding PII ;-) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutwo Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 Progress of a sorts today. The council official responsible for asbestos has indicated that he would like to see all asbestos removed however, he admits that if the BSF contractor, as a separate entity, want to leave it in place then he is powerless as long as they come up with the method statements to work around the issue. He did mention something interesting though, a method of attaching to the clad roof structure called "glue and screw" whereby timber is firmly glued to whatever cladding is around the girder, and then screwed/bolted through, the glued timber acting as a protective seal around the hole. Any fixings would then be to the timber. He thought that this may well be the solution, but I have my doubts as to the load capacity of such a system. I would be interested to know if anyone has seen anything like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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