Ynot Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 however, they do redeem themselves a little bit by giving earplugs out on the door...Which to me, really DEFEATS THE OBJECT!!! Sheesh! A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on. Over on the dreaded Facebook,OK - Let's use the 'power' of social networking.I've no idea whether this will end up being a useful or fruitless exercise, but let's see what it brings out of the woodwork.... http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=97415025352 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Ah the valve sound system. The system whereby a punter or a DJ will try to have sex with it and think its the best thing in the world, however, someone with ears, an engineer for example knows just what it really sounds like. I cannot comment directly, I haven't heard it. But trustworthy sources say it's poor to say the least, the emphasis is on volume and LF reproduction alone, not linear response, even coverage, or any of that nonsense that we deal with day in day out. I agree with handing out ear plugs on the door being stupid. If you turn the system down and take less boxes, you can save money employing someone to hand out ear plugs, you can save money on ear plugs, you can save money on boxes, save money on transporting boxes, and you could maybe over time regain some form of reputation in the industry that you claim to be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_kyuss Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 As a 24 year old with working ears (I have the medical evidence to prove it!) I don't mix FOH at levels I thing are to loud or possible damaging. But I mainly mix monitors and when I havn't got IEM (hearing damage with IEM is a talk for another day) to play with if I want to keep my job alot of the time I have to run some monitors at silly volumes, were if it was FOH I would of run away. As for touring volume I worked the AC/DC gig at the 02 and before I even turned up I new it was going to be very loud. Were talking about one of the biggest "rock bands" ever I honestly think that part of the audiance would of complained, think main stage Glasto 07. As engineers I don't think many of us on this forum can say they've had 100,000 shouting at them to "turn it up" I've meet James the Killers engineer a few times and I don't think he would say it was one of his happest experiences. As many of us workin the "rock and roll" and Dj sector im affraid Loud music is general what the audience want and thats who were mixing for. I would just like to also say at most of the gigs I've worked and not mixed that I have thought were to loud it hasn't been the volume thats been the issue, its be a frequencey problem, eg 2.5kHz 5n the snare killing me. Im working at the pink gigs at the 02 all weekend and the mix / volume has been superb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 OK - Let's use the 'power' of social networking.I've no idea whether this will end up being a useful or fruitless exercise, but let's see what it brings out of the woodwork....http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=97415025352Looks like we're generating some interest...If you do leave a comment, maybe stick a 'BR' at the end, so I/we'll know it's feedback rooted from here rather than the general populace... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boswell Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=97415025352Looks like we're generating some interest... This requires you to join Facebook, which I have no intention of doing :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 This requires you to join Facebook, which I have no intention of doing Don't worry - I'll post some of the more juicy bits here as they come in...Such as :to loud you want to go see motorhead mate the problem with people who worry about saftey and pc is that they got nothing better to do. so go out have a beer and rock out and if people want to go to gigs get deaf get wiplash its their choice, stop trying to curb our fun you health and saftey nuts have already stopped crowd surfing and stage diving if you want to be ruled by the state go and live in a country that is a police state. didnt come on this page to go on one but you are missing to much(copeid verbatim...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=97415025352Looks like we're generating some interest... This requires you to join Facebook, which I have no intention of doing If you use this (slightly different) link: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=97415025352, you should be able to read the comments (but you can't reply unless you change your mind about joining). We've spent most of the night dealing with a DJ who wants more (and more) volume from our installed system (normally runs about 102db @ 10m on our uncalibrated meter), giving the reason that people were able to talk to each other by shouting. It's now running about 108db (same uncalibrate meter and position), and running up to the limits on one of our bands, but apparently still not loud enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Actually, I seriously wonder if one big reason that some acts keep demanding more and more level is that they've already damaged their hearing and really think it's too quiet! Add to this the effects of hearing fatigue and "familiarity" and fader creep becomes an issue. Having access to an SPL meter (even a basic, uncalibrated one) is very useful. I know that (in my theatre world) it's all too easy to want to creep up the levels as the run goes on. However, the punters are generally hearing the show for the first time--so those levels that seemed "just right" during tech week are probably what they want to hear too--not the ramped up SPL that your ears want because of all sorts of psycho acoustic effects. I'm talking about theatre here but I'm sure the same applies to DJs and rock bands who hear the same stuff night after night. However, how we convince the DJ or Lemmy from Motorhead that their perception of their sound is all screwed up I don't know! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boswell Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 If you use this (slightly different) link: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=97415025352, you should be able to read the comments (but you can't reply unless you change your mind about joining). Many thanks, I can lurk now !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Adam Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I can't find the exact quote, but someone in this thread noted " I'd like to see evidence to support that the whole audience wants it to be painfully loud" (or something along those lines.) I sort of have a bit of evidence on that. As a promoter, we often put on a silent disco (or headphone disco in this case as their scotland based). For those of you who aren't aware of this phenomonen yet, you get two DJs, a two way RF transmitter, 1500 sets of 2 channel wireless headphones (or as many as you want), giving the punters a choice of channel A, B, A+B (god knows why) and a volume control. The way I set this up, is to put the headphone's volume controls at the 100% position and then adjust the outputs of the DJ mixers until it is at a volume I'd call the maximum anyone should have (I know it's all subjective, but I believe I'm generous, but not too loud) . I then turn all of the headsets back to half way as a good starting point.At the end of the night, without exception, all of the headsets will be in the 100% position. ALL of them!Now, the first time I did this I thought I must have set them too low, however, the DJs mix from them, the lampie wears them (obviously), the bar staff like to have them and all of the staff agree that the volume is plenty, if not a little hot at the 100% mark. (interestingly the DJs also always have theirs at 100%, but they are trying to "feel" the music too in order for a better mix.) I actually still wear my moulds under them, because if I'm doing lamps, I'll have them on for 6 hours or so.Now, I'm not saying it's right, but it goes some way to showing that yes, the punters do want it loud. Either because that's what they are used to, or what they actually like is another argument that could never be won. Does anyone else do the Headphone disco thing? as I'd be interested to find out if anyone else has a more accurate way of setting maximum output volume. Also, if anyone hasn't seen one, there's a clip on you tube of one of ours. The audio is shocking, but remember, this is just people singing along to what's in the headphones - no PA. (crowd noise usually measures around 95db during the good songs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drsound Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 That sounds like a great idea. What kind of money are you looking at to set it up? How robust do you find the headsets? As an ex-QM member I have memories of some nights getting fairly rowdy in days gone by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Adam Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I have to say, it is one of the best nights we run. We are doing another in september and it always sells out.The head sets are good quality, both robust and sound quality, and a set of cheapy batteries will last you the night. I'm not sure how much it'd be to buy all the gear, but we had a quick look at doing it last year. If I remember right, it was around a fiver per pair of headphones because you buy so many, plus a bog standard 2 channel transmitter.As a guide, to hire it in, look at around £1 per head for the headphones, plus DJs and decor.There are a few companies doing it now. Some give you the whole package (djs, headsets, batteries, decor) and some can just supply the headsets alone. PM me if you need details.On a side note (it's probably been mentioned on here before) but the Fun Lovin Criminals did one of the first ever silent gigs. The drummer was in a sound proofed booth, with the rest DI'd and it was transmitted to headsets in the same way as the DJs.I'm also looking at doing silent Karaoke at some point. A silent battle of the bands has also been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drsound Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Good stuff, sounds like an interesting thing to get into. The ability to get away from the noise when ordering a drink or trying to talk to someone would sell it to me if nothing else. What was the feedback in terms of the 'experience'? I'm no great clubber but I'm guessing they generally want about +10dB below 100Hz to cause internal damage of some description. Obviously you're missing the physcial transmission of energy but did they notice or moan about this? The worst experience I've ever had with bad sound leading to hearing damage was your close rivals about a mile down the hill. Early in my formative years I went to a club night for a couple of hours and was still suffering from dulled hearing after three days - it was one I regularly went to but they were just taking the p*ss with thrashing the PA on that particular occasion. It was a real wake up call and I've never allowed it to happen again. Fortunately I've managed to retain decent range on my hearing after more than 10 years of doing 'grown-up' gigs. In fact it's better than most 18 year olds' hearing according to my doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave SA Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I've run ''FOH'' on a silent battle of the bands in a chain venue. I'd say it was far worse for my ears (physically and sonically) wearing those awful headsets than it was being able to wear plugs when the sound is hitting around 100db (very small venue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 "Silent" gigs, discos or whatever sounds like an interesting idea. The problem I see is: ........ those awful headsets ....... Something that costs £5:00 or even £10 or £20 can't be much good can it? Am I to stop bothering about sub, or real top end when mixing? Is the MP3 through cheap headphones now as good as good as sound needs to be? Anybody got any spec on these transmitters / receivers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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