Touring Gigs

[Dan Appleby]

Just want to share my experiences of a couple of gigs I have been to in the past week...

 

23rd April - AC/DC - Birmingham NEC Arena

 

Rock'n'Roll! Being a noise boy myself, I am not usually a massive fan of 'big' gigs, I always find the sound in general fairly ropey (I'm sure there's a thread/rant on here somewhere already about this)... However, this was the first arena/stadium gig I've been too in ages where I thought the sound was actually very very good - crisp, clear punchy yada yada. BUT! I had to wear earplugs - the overall SPL level was (in my opinion) far too loud.

 

30th April - Doves - Reading Hexagon

 

This was another excellent gig - I have a minor reservation that the mix was too harsh and toppy, but that aside I thought the band were great, the overall show was great, and I really enjoyed the gig. However, for this gig I forgot to take my trusty plugs along with me... As I am writing this post now my ears are ringing. Badly.

 

I am always concious whenever I am behind the mixing desk at what level I am mixing at, I always try and mix with an SPL meter wherever possible... but generally (even without a meter) I know when a mix is TOO LOUD, and when I am potentially damaging peoples hearing. It makes me really uncomfortable when I know the gig I am mixing is too loud... I don't get how other engineers can let it happen... ok ok, sometimes it is unavoidable due to the venue size or other factors, but some of my best mixes I have mixed below 98dB.

 

It really concerns me that at the AC/DC gig probably 8,000+ people will have had their hearing damaged in some way. At the Doves gig 2,000 people as well as me will also have ringing ears.

 

Should touring engineers be really mixing at these levels? Should the audience really have to be wearing earplugs?

 

Discuss!

[Killyp]

I agree. I'm 18 and I've got ringing in my right ear from when I saw Fleetwood Mac at the NEC in Birmingham a few years ago. Yes, I should've worn earplugs, but I was right at the back of the venue to one side (hence one ear was always pointing at the stage).

 

I realised how loud it was, and I should've been smart enough to leave, but I wasn't. :o

 

I agree though, big gigs in general seem to be far too loud. I often find them so loud I can't actually hear what's going on...

[ChazHS]

As a club DJ and as a sound engineer I'm exposed to a lot of very loud places (125dB +) and I'm afraid a lot of the time it's because people like their music loud, I always get asked to 'turn it up' when things get going, and if I'm in the swing of things with them I'm only too happy to oblige.

 

Having said that, I've found a clean non-pushed system causes much much less ringing in your ears than a system which is being pushed to distortion - another reason to buy expensive PA I guess!

[Dave]

It's worth noting that clean sound is perceived by the brain as quieter than distorted sound. However, this can be dangerous as you don't realise the volume is so high, and are therefore less likely to protect your hearing. Your ears can still be damaged even though they are not ringing. Take care!

 

EDIT: Just to reply to Dan - you're a very sensible guy and I agree completely with you - and I write as someone who used to tour with a loud indie grunge band!! It's funny, because I also don't go to that many gigs as a punter. At the last one I went to, the mix just didn't sound right to me, and I found it hard to enjoy the concert. I'm still trying to work out if it was me who was in the wrong.

[paulears]

One day, somebody will get hearing damage from going to a concert and take legal action against the person responsible - the sound engineer who shoved the fader! It will be one of those test case things - but realistically, if somebody gets damaged, then the person who did it carries the can. It will come - especially now that Government has already accepted the hazard and protected employees.

 

I've recently found a rather good emergency hearing protector, that hasn't caused any irritation or soreness to my sensitive ears - blutack!

[Dave]

Paul, the problem is that hearing loss is cumulative. It would be hard to attribute any damage to a single event.

 

But yes, a court case from a punter would be a good thing.

 

I'm not enough enough of a legal expert to know if an individual sound engineer could be held liable in such a case, or whether the promoter or venue would be sued (and perhaps try then to claim off the noise boy). Another reason to have PLI.

 

[A venue that was particularly strict on H&S once insisted I included noise levels on a written risk assessment - the crazy thing was that the job was a legal conference with two lectern mics, one lav radio, and no music (live or recorded)! I had to comply, but asked them if they'd risk assessed the chances of an aeroplane crashing on their building!)

[Ben Langfeld]

I work for a crowd management company on the side, usually doing about four shows a week, split between a shed and an academy. At both we have excessive exposure to noise, but the smaller venue seems less tolerable in that respect. I wear ER15s (the baby blue ones) usually, and they take the edge off, but I'm still concerned about longer term damage. Unfortunately, I can't even fit the full size ones in my ears. Cheap disposable earplugs actually seem to cut out more noise, but the hassle of putting them in and taking them out is sometimes too much. Plus, they aren't exactly discrete being bright yellow. For this reason, I am considering purchasing custom molded plugs to nip this little issue in the bud. It is apparent to me that there is a certain stigma amongst the uninitiated. It doesn't bother me (being laughed at for wearing plugs is the least of my concerns), but I expect it will influence some people.

 

It is also interesting to compare the type of show as well as the age of the engineer to the volume. Metallica was touted as the loudest show of the year. It was loud, yes, but not excessive. Then Tina Turner rolled up and absolutely trounced that. So much so I swapped 3 out of 4 of her shows for other shifts. And yes, the engineer did appear to be older.

 

PS. The loudest part of the AC/DC show was the pyros making the noise for the firing guns. Gave me quite a shock, and I was very close to them. :o

[drsound]

I'm not enough enough of a legal expert to know if an individual sound engineer could be held liable in such a case, or whether the promoter or venue would be sued (and perhaps try then to claim off the noise boy). Another reason to have PLI.

Now I wonder if PLI would cover you for this. The cause isn't the equipment, the manner in which it is set up or a blatant ignorance of the much mooted 'Helf n safety regs'. The cause, if our hypothetical case ever came to court, would be incompetence on the part of the operator. I think you might be into the realms of PI insurance here. Does anybody who regularly mixes big shows carry this? I do but for other reasons, it's never occurred to me that someone might sue me because of a loud gig.

 

I must admit my approach is to mix it at the volume that the promoter (or whoever is paying the bills) wants me to mix it at providing I can do this cleanly without distortion. I'll protect my own ears and those of my staff but surely as long as the public are made aware of the dangers it's their choice whether to be there or not. I haven't been to a big show as a punter for a long time but given that there's always a disclaimer about strobe lighting, the use of 'smoke' or pyros and anything else that might cause harm I would expect that the ticket also gives a warning about loud noises.

 

A good comparison perhaps - I'm a big motorsports fan as I guess a lot of others here are. Whenever I buy a ticket for an event on the back it has a big warning stating that "MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS" then goes on to explain all the gory ways in which you can be hurt, including loud noise (ever heard an F1 or GT grid? It'll bottom out your ear drums from 100m). I still choose to go because I like it. I take ear plugs for the loud bits and our 12 year old wears them whenever we're near the track. I see a lot of people adopting a similar approach and there's certainly no stigma involved with it like you might experience if you turned up to Metallica with your fluffy pink ear defenders a la Jeremy Clarkson.

 

I hate this culture we're encouraging that insists it's everyone else's responsibility to look after the individual's health and safety. Sorry but that's nonsense. The principal onus should be on that individual to take a view on whether something poses too great a risk against the benefit he will get from it. Going to a gig is dangerous - you could be beaten up, get food poisoning from a dodgy hotdog, catch god knows what from being in close proximity to thousands of other people and yes, even damage your hearing. The individual must weigh up those risks, take whatever mitigating action he sees fit and decide whether he still wants to go. Used to be called common bloody sense. Now it's called a risk assessment.

 

Bit of a rant but I think the day someone successfully sues because they have put themselves in harm's way is when we submit to becoming the United States of Britain.

[Shez]

Paul, the problem is that hearing loss is cumulative. It would be hard to attribute any damage to a single event.

 

True, but the levels at which damage is caused are well documented. Anyone going above those levels IS causing damage; the symptoms just may not be immediately obvious.

 

There was a case successfully brought against a promoter in Germany in 2000, details here. Interesting to note that the sound engineer himself wasn't considered to be objective enough to be able to keep the levels sensible as he was the one pushing the faders.

 

I do agree that the majority of "big" gigs I've been to have been too loud. Being rather protective of my own hearing, when I'm pushing faders I keep things sensible and haven't yet had complaints that it's too quiet.

 

Not an easy job to keep everyone happy though.

[Sound Juice]

For this reason, I am considering purchasing custom molded plugs to nip this little issue in the bud.

 

I've just had my molds done for a pair of custom ear plugs. (I got them on offer for £99, send me a PM if you want to know where from, not sure if I can advertise that on here?)

 

This was after going out to numerous friends birthdays in clubs that have been soo loud in places that without ear plugs my ears would've been shreaded.

 

I totally agree with the OP, I've never once mixed anything to be that loud. I've even walked away from a gig where the organiser was demanding I turn it up; "the level of my local club is twice this"

[Andrew C]

I've just had my molds done for a pair of custom ear plugs. (I got them on offer for £99, send me a PM if you want to know where from, not sure if I can advertise that on here?)

Feel free to recommend ANY supplier who has excelled in their service (so long as it is not your own business that you are plugging)!

[the kid]

I've just had my molds done for a pair of custom ear plugs. (I got them on offer for £99, send me a PM if you want to know where from, not sure if I can advertise that on here?)

Feel free to recommend ANY supplier who has excelled in their service (so long as it is not your own business that you are plugging)!

 

 

Is there not a thread about for ear plugs and suppliers etc ?

[GreatBigHippy]

I hate this culture we're encouraging that insists it's everyone else's responsibility to look after the individual's health and safety. Sorry but that's nonsense. The principal onus should be on that individual to take a view on whether something poses too great a risk against the benefit he will get from it. Going to a gig is dangerous - you could be beaten up, get food poisoning from a dodgy hotdog, catch god knows what from being in close proximity to thousands of other people and yes, even damage your hearing. The individual must weigh up those risks, take whatever mitigating action he sees fit and decide whether he still wants to go. Used to be called common bloody sense. Now it's called a risk assessment.

 

I'm sorry but the reasoning here is out of whack from my perspective. How is it MY fault if:

1: I get beaten up by a pissed/violent punter that security should be keeping an eye on? Or not let in to the gig.

2: I eat a badly prepared hot dog from a supposedly professional supplier of catering?

3: Get ill because some other bugger has decided to come to a gig with swine flu?

4: Have my hearing damaged because the sound engineer hasn't got basic knowledge of the dangers of high spls?

 

H&S is there because, surprisingly, some people don't seem to care about the wellbeing of others and we need a framework to kick them up the arse.

[andy_s]

While agreeing with the majority who think that there is a moral responsibility to avoid harming people by inflicting AC/DC (for example) on them, the Noise at Work Act does not at the moment oblige us to protect the hearing of the audience, just those who are working in the loud environment...

 

so an indication at the door that the music is going to be loud, and prolonged exposure may damage hearing might be seen as sufficient disclaimer...

[drsound]

I hate this culture we're encouraging that insists it's everyone else's responsibility to look after the individual's health and safety. Sorry but that's nonsense. The principal onus should be on that individual to take a view on whether something poses too great a risk against the benefit he will get from it. Going to a gig is dangerous - you could be beaten up, get food poisoning from a dodgy hotdog, catch god knows what from being in close proximity to thousands of other people and yes, even damage your hearing. The individual must weigh up those risks, take whatever mitigating action he sees fit and decide whether he still wants to go. Used to be called common bloody sense. Now it's called a risk assessment.

 

I'm sorry but the reasoning here is out of whack from my perspective. How is it MY fault if:

1: I get beaten up by a pissed/violent punter that security should be keeping an eye on? Or not let in to the gig.

2: I eat a badly prepared hot dog from a supposedly professional supplier of catering?

3: Get ill because some other bugger has decided to come to a gig with swine flu?

4: Have my hearing damaged because the sound engineer hasn't got basic knowledge of the dangers of high spls?

 

H&S is there because, surprisingly, some people don't seem to care about the wellbeing of others and we need a framework to kick them up the arse.

You miss my point I fear. I'm not saying it's your fault that the hazard exists, of course you are not the root cause. You are, however, adequately informed of the likliehood of each of these events occurring to take a view on whether you should go or not.

 

Look at it another way, would you walk through the less salubrious areas of, for example, London at 3 in the morning on your own? I wouldn't because I'll get mugged. Others might because they don't see it as a problem. I'm not the cause of the mugging but I can avoid the risk.

 

The point is that, assuming the correct information about the hazard has been provided to the punter, he or she is at liberty to decide whether to:

 

a) Go along and accept the risk

b) Go along but wear hearing protection to mitigate the risk

c) Don't go

 

Now put this in context of crossing the road to get a can of coke - a significantly more risky operation since the chances of death are a lot higher. You have three options:

 

a) Cross the road at the shop

b) Cross the road at the pedestrian crossing a couple of hundred yards away

c) Don't cross the road

 

Crap analogies but do you see my thinking now?