Electric Piano

[adamcoppard]

I have just been given the requirement of adding a Electric Piano in to our sound mixing desk to record it for a concert. Now, whilst I know we can do it (we just take a 1/4 inch jack from the headphone, and take it to the 1/4 input into our sound desk), I stopped and thought about it for a little bit.

How long could I make a 1/4 inch lead run? I need it over 20m, and whilst we don't own one, buying is going to be difficult, as we are on a budget. Should I go ahead and convert it to XLR (DI box (which we would need to buy / hire for the day)), and run that?

Also, should I attempt to mic up the other backing instruments (a Saxaphone, and similar instrument) with our Sehnheiser Evolution / AKG microphones available (these are all I can use for the day), as the vocals and piano will be, or should I just not bother, and keep the levels on the piano and vocals sensible, so that these can be heard?

 

Adam

[Bobbsy]

Okay, a few things come to mind.

 

First off, you say you need to do this to record the piano but then mention a concert and talk about balancing levels so they can be heard. I assume that you also need this for FOH sound reinforcement?

 

Second, many/most electric pianos have dedicated line outputs as well as just a headphone jack. If your piano has this, you should use them in preference to the headphone jack. These will likely be unbalanced quarter inch TS jacks but, just occasionally, you find a good piano that'll give you a balanced out.

 

If you do have to use the headphone out, be aware that this be a stereo jack, so you'll need to adapt it to two unbalanced jacks and use either a stereo input or two mono ones on your mixer. There's no set distance below which you can use unbalanced and above which you can't...but for 20 metres I wouldn't try it. I'd buy or rent a couple of DI boxes and be done with it...rental is dirt cheap and even purchase of basic units isn't much.

 

One issue you may not have thought of is that, if you come straight out of the piano, you'll have to provide some kind of monitoring for the pianist and the rest of the band. This can either be fed off your mixing desk or you can use a small instrument amp/speaker near the piano and split off your DIs.

 

As for whether or not to mic up the rest of the band, there's no right or wrong--and it also depends on the relative priority of the recording and the live part of the concert. You could, of course, just use the instrument amp as both monitoring and for the audience to hear and leave the whole band to their own devices. On the other hand, DIing and miking everything then putting it into the FOH mix gives you total control over both the live mix and the recording. As I say, it depends on your abilities and resources...as well as the split of priorities between the live and recorded performances.

 

Bob

[adamcoppard]

Thanks for that, I'll go and look at some prices of some DI boxes, as it seems the better solution. As for monitoring, I get a bit stuck on that, I may have to use a second line out for a guitar amp say, or, monitoring won't happen.

 

As for recording it, yes, vocals and piano (solo) is getting taken into the mixer, and then using the tape out, put into my MacBook via Line In, and just recorded.

[revbobuk]

Just note that the Behringer DI20, which looks like a good solution as it is 2-channel and cheap, has been found to be excessively noisy by quite a few users. Stereo isn't a huge benefit in this kind of situation anyway. (Having said that, we use one for our Roland piano without problems - they aren't all noisy.)

[TimmyP1955]

Get at least a Horizon or Whirlwind. Better yet, get a Radial ProD1 or ProD2 - buy once, cry once.

[paulears]

Here we go - I've not found any evidence of people finding the Behringer noisy (and the stereo function is rather useful) and as for the Radials, I can't seem to find any established UK dealers stocking them - could be wrong, but after trying canford, studiospares and the usual places, a Google with a UK search isn't exactly overpopulated with results.

 

In this scenario, the benefits of any DI box will be obvious. I have half a dozen DIs in the box - and for stereo keys often use the Behringer with no problems whatsoever, swapping it for 2 BSSs make little difference I can hear in the venue. In the studio, it will be different - then, as low a noise floor as possible is the quest.

[Bobbsy]

I have to agree with Paulears. I've never had any problems/complaints with the DI20 and have also frequently used the DI800 in situations where the keyboard player is doing his Rick Wakeman imitation with lots of different devices in the same show. I sincerely doubt that, with a line level output from a keyboard, noise is going to be much of an issue for live work.

 

In the studio, or for something like a guitar with a relatively low output I'd get more fussy but sometimes there are a lot of urban myths tossed around.

 

Bob

[handyandi]

Be aware that if the piano has a headphone out rather than a pair of audio outs that if it also has internal speakers using the headphone output mutes the internal speakers leaving the player in silence unless you give him some other form of monitoring.

 

Andi

[Simon Lewis]

I have had real problems with the one D120 I've come across. Noisy to the point that it simply could not be used.

 

Now it could have been faulty, or it could have been the fact we were trying to sort out an earth issue between a laptop, data projector and sound system, but one cheap passive DI later we had silence.

 

I have used numerous Behringer D100, which seem much better, although two or three of these are now broken. I've now started using their passive boxes (DI1400 / DI1600) as a simple replacement that doesn't need phantom and doesn't trigger a call out when both 20dB attenuators on the D100 get pushed in by mistake.

 

To get back to the OP, if you hire a DI, you can afford to get a good quality one in. If you are buying, then although the cheap actives and passives can work fine, I'd suggest something like an EMO passive DI as a solid, fairly indestructable solution.

 

 

 

Simon

[Alec]

I have had real problems with the one D120 I've come across. Noisy to the point that it simply could not be used.

Completely agreed.

 

I have used numerous Behringer D100, which seem much better, although two or three of these are now broken.

I've got 3 and they've all stood up fine for years now.

 

doesn't trigger a call out when both 20dB attenuators on the D100 get pushed in by mistake.

That's my one bugbear about the DI100, if only they'd used a nice recessed slidey switch that stayed put! My problem is normally when the -20 pad I use a lot on line level gear gets knocked off and throws the gain to pot. But also have it the other way, where the second switch gets pressed and the signal all but disappears!

[revbobuk]

It seems to me - from my experience with the DI20, and from the Blueroom search function - that some examples of the DI20 are noisy - the one we use for stereo keys at church is quiet; the one in my kit is noisy. But when they are noisy, they are very noisy.

 

Unusually, the output noise on mine doesn't get attenuated with the pad settings, so they are as hoisy on the output for line level inputs as they are for lower level inputs. I've used mine for live sound many times, and it's still usable, but it isn't quiet. And while I'd be OK with that if the keys were just part of the mix, if it was a 'voice plus piano' concert, I wouldn't.

 

I've got the 8-channel active DI as well, and it is much, much quieter - a really useful bit of kit.

 

Just really making the point that I'm not down on Behringer, but this isn't urban myth, more my personal experience - still not gospel, but my contribution none the less.

[MarkPAman]

This thread probably doesn't need another "me too" post, but............

 

The D120 I had was noisy to the point where I don't think it ever made it to the end of a soundcheck. As it came from Thomann, it went back within 30 days.

 

I've always been happy enough with Behringer's other DI boxes though.