Frog, Fat Frog and Budget

[jbaileypro]

Hey guys,

 

I have been loving the blue room forums and have learnt masses.

 

I am just wondering as I want to expand but already am limited to my lighting controller. The desk I have a the moment (and you'll laugh) is a Showtec Showmaster 24 which is an awesome simple desk by the way. I have already run out of channels as I have 2 scanners, 12 channels of dimming and also a fogger. The whole desk is now full up and the only way I can reduce is of course by doubling up.

 

I have been looking at something which will let me expand now, but of course there is a budget involved. Just to put it into perspective I spent around £120 on the Showtec desk. I have been looking at the Zero 88 frog and fat frog. My "expanding" is mainly to get more dimmers and generic rig first. I can also do with using the scanners just by the control of faders (which Im already used to any way).

 

I have seen the prices from www.usedlighting.co.uk on both of them and of course its a big different in price but then also the main difference I see is the use of a full intelligent lighting control in the Fat Frog. Is there anywhere else that I can look at because we also will be buying this for charity purposes.

 

I do understand about these kind of desks although I have only worked on a Jester 48 channel and also the Frog 2. I have also used a pearl 2004 about 7 times but of course its WAY out of our budget. The main reason it so that we can have visual feedback and also soft patching as we have turned up at some gigs where they have around a couple of hundred channels of dimming. And yep, on our little desk we only get the first 24. We only bought the Showtec desk to start of with and also when people hire they can choose a smaller desk and also simpler desk.

 

Any questions welcome too, I'm a bit crap at writing anyway.

 

Cheers guys!

[Wol]

You mention that you have a budget involved. Can this be elaborated on to give a bit more of a numerical value than "there is a budget involved"! Slightly concerned as your profile says that you own a 'non profit' business. Non-profit and having budgets usually aren't a common combination to be honest!

 

What sort of events are you planning on doing with the new desk?

 

Have you looked at PC solutions at all?

 

And your writing isn't that crap compared to some I've seen! its beta dan sum of tha crap u here on da internet wen ppl ryt lyk dis.

 

Welcome to the B.R by the way :-)

[boatman]

As the OP isn't 15 until August this year, he seems to have been very busy although "owning a company" may be a little OTT. Investing in the starter version of Lightfactory or one of plethora of other software solutions sounds like the best option to me.

[jbaileypro]

Cheers guys,

 

Yep I have looked and played with some of the pc solutions so far although we are all work on macs (we run professional live video). Pc solutions just can't handle the type of fast switching that I use and also when ever we have tried out software on pcs they are also not as fast at responding than a physical desk.

 

I am looking at the old frog range because we need it to be able to adapt to many different situations (as we hire although do not allow dry hire). So right now we are doing a kind of theatrical show and they can some house dimmers with around 70 channels of dimming although they have around about 16 lights then plus 20 we have hired to them. This of course means the use of soft patching which out little desk doesn't do and acts as being useless. We currently have hired a Jester to do that Job and because of it being theatrical and a big production they need to rehearse a long time before and costs a bomb to rent on its own.

 

Can I also confirm that the only difference between the bog standard Frog and Fat Frog is that the Fat Frog has a better control for intelligent fixtures, and I also think it has another universe?

 

Any other desks or places to look for it second hand?

 

And by the way we are a charitable and non profit business which means we also get donations and also we do it as a hobby for now and don't get paid in the time we work for (meaning more money to gain equipment). In the future although then we can look at that but blah blah blah.

 

Also another note is that is there a way to get any updates to threads sent straight to your email? I thought I set it up but then just looked and saw I had two replies.

 

JJ

[Simon Lewis]

PM Sent

[HobitLight]

Can I also confirm that the only difference between the bog standard Frog and Fat Frog is that the Fat Frog has a better control for intelligent fixtures, and I also think it has another universe?

Yes, the Fat Frog allows you to control up to twelve intelligent fixtures, using LTP as opposed to HTP if you were to use the faders. The Fat Frog only has one DMX universe, I'm afraid (The Bull Frog has two) though there are two outputs on the desk, both feeding the same output.

[Davethsparky]

So right now we are doing a kind of theatrical show and they can some house dimmers with around 70 channels of dimming although they have around about 16 lights then plus 20 we have hired to them. This of course means the use of soft patching which out little desk doesn't do

 

My first reaction to that is, what kind of venue has 70 ways of dimming but no way to control them?

 

A little more on-topic, I would suggest you look at getting demo's of the desks you are thinking about. Also searching on here will bring up many topics about this very subject.

 

As you said the major difference between the frog and fat frog is that the former doesn't do intelligent gear but the latter does. You may also want to look at the jester ML, 48 regular channels and 30 movers may suit you? If you already know the desk and like it then it would seem like a sensible choice.

[jbaileypro]

I have also been looking at the Jester ML 48 but again that can cost more than a second hand fat frog. There are also some software differences in the software.

 

And in the answer to the venue questions is that they had it installed but decided never to buy as they used that to rent a avo pearl 2004. Then of course in true school fashion (yep this is a school! Don't you love that word!) then pulled the plug.

 

Another idea is that if I just get a Jester ML could I use the input port to connect my old showmaster and just use the Jester's patch feature? Save a good bit of money and still do all the stuff I need!

 

Also I know that you can used the expansion of midi to add more channels! But lets not go there.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Just to add that I have spent many months looking at the Jester and also Frog ranges on the board. I have gained a lot of info on them, so thank you to all the guys here (and gals to be politically corrects and not offend!).

[peter]

I think it's worth pointing out that the Leap Frog 48 is an ideal replacement for the original Frog range if you're looking for expandability and high level feature sets. We've just reduced the list price from £3250 to £2800 so it's even more affordable than ever before.

 

If I can be of any assistance with your decision on which desk to go for, please don't hesitate to let me know.

 

Kind Regards

 

 

Peter

[paulears]

In the first post you mention used lighting as a possible source. As the BBC always say, there are other second hand dealers out there, and as Peter just reported, the new prices are coming down to the level where an expensive second hand desk with a limited guarantee doesn't really hold up against a new one with full dealer support and someone who you can always go back to if need be. Buying second hand is often fine - but whenever I do it, I always make sure that I can afford to lose my money. If I don't, it's a bonus. It's worse if you are spending other peoples money - buying secondhand can become very awkward.

 

the other thing to remember that when second hand dealers sell equipment, they bought it cheap. This could be for good reasons - maybe people upgraded, or went bust or that kind of reason - or it could have been hammered by a hire company, and when they consider the item to have paid for itself (perhaps many times over), they look at possible running costs to keep it going - decide it's risky and sell it cheap to get rid of it. A dealer could snap these kind of products up and just sell them on, perhaps giving you a 3 month warranty (with their fingers firmly crossed) and once that runs out, breath a sigh of relief and be happy you can't send it back for a refund. A few of these dealers also offer no backup whatsoever - in fact, they might not even know what the thing is. Most are good and pleasant to deal with. Others grab your money and then threaten you when you complain. A rather infamous eBay group exists who do battle with one company who sell on there. When feedback could be used as blackmail, any complaints about product brought abuse and a negative feedback. My one and only negative eBay feedback was with these people who charged me £70 for special packing which was bubble wrap and the item was wrecked. Nothing I could do about it.

 

Whenever you buy second hand, you need to consider who you are buying from. If the item is an expensive one - tell the company you are concerned about spending that much on a second hand item, and ask them if they could give you a couple of satisfied customers you can chat to about how well they get looked after. If they fob you off with excuses, or quote the data protection act, or client confidentiality - run a mile. If they won't help you before you buy, imagine what they'd do after they have your dosh.

 

Well worth talking to used lighting - Iain Dennis is a member here, and he'll be able to put your mind at ease, and maybe do you a better deal - especially as Peter's mentioned the new stock price decreases. You can only ask..........

[Paul J Need]

I've seen a lot of second hand fat frogs for more or less the same price we used to sell brand new ones...... limited to 12 channels - so for about the same money look at the Jester ML series

 

Cracking little desks

 

 

 

EDIT Sorry meant the TL series - 200 dimmers and 30 movers for about the same price as a second hand fat frog !!! can't be bad!

[jbaileypro]

I understand about the Jester ML series as I thought that in the future when we use more movers than we can use that in the system (using the DMX input) with the Frog, I might be able to get the Frog a very good price so that then I can buy that now as we have near the money. What are the prices for the ML series (with faders) and maybe the price of the 24 channel one (good to use for subfaders).

 

Is there any second hand yet or what price do you think they will go for in the future?

[simschr]

I did see a Jester ML come up ex-demo a while ago, I doubt we'll see a used console for some time yet they're still quite recent desks. Stage Electrics currently have a promotion on the Jester ML which is £799 ex VAT. (Sales>Internet Promotions).

 

Chris

[Paul J Need]

PM Sent