Balancing Light / Sound in a hire

[adamcoppard]

It's approaching the time of year when I need to start getting some quotes together for our school production, and was wandering, how everyone else balances lights with sound? By this I mean that I have a budget of £1,500 - £2,000 tops for the 1 and a half - 2 week hire, and am trying to work out where the budget for one begins and the other ends. I've already told myself to go for a mixing desk that I've used before and feel comfortable with, but other than that, I'm trying to work out how the spread of this budget works most effectively.

I was thinking of doing something like this:

Yamaha LS9 mixing desk (16 or 32ch)

Some form of amp - speaker combination, probably some subs and then some tops (we've run something similar the last two years)

4 Sehnheiser belt pack radio mics (essentially a rack of them).

7 boundry mic's (we are cutting back on the radio mics, and going ahead with putting out boundry mics)

Leads (I almost forgot this on the last quote I put together :P )

 

Then, spending what we would have spent on all the mic's in the last few years, and all the other fancy parts we are leaving behind:

Some form of lighting desk, with auxilarry buttons for hazer / smoke and capable of handling LED fixtures.

LED Par Can's (8-10)

Some ETC Source 14 (4/5)

Some Par 16's for edge of stage

Haze

Smoke

Comms

Dimmers and all that this entails.

 

Whilst I am not asking for a what should I hire / what shouldn't I hire, in theatre, which do you really think demands the most attention and most budget? From meetings with directors, it's been mentioned that lighting is going to take more importance than in other years (which is why LED Par's are getting hired), with more smooth effects etc, other than harsh white light.

 

Also, what's changed in the other years is it's started off with no radio mic's then principle cast, then most of the cast (we went from 0 - 16 mics' last year, which put costs up a lot). I'm therefore putting more emphasis on mic's to pic up everyone around the edge of the stage then just a few people.

 

So, what do you think takes more importance, and how would you structure out what go's where from a budget?

[djw1981]

I guess it depends what in-house kit you have for each discipline, and what the requirements of teh show are. You state that lighting is an area which teh director wants to focus on, and this will have to be reflected in your plans.

 

It may be worth doing 2 plans - one with the sound & lighting setup you favour and one with teh sound setup you ended up with last year, and the changes this would force on other budgets (if any) and then you can make clear at tech meetings that introducing 16 radio mics will result in a need for either an additional £X on the budget, or the removal of X Y and Z from other kit lists and the effect this would have on the production. This second plan may also involve more creative lighting solutions with in house kit, but also helps to focus you managing resources well.

[adamcoppard]

Sadly, it's going to be a taking out rather than adding radio mics. We spent nearlly £4,000 last year and maximum this year is £2,000.

[tokm]

it's been mentioned that lighting is going to take more importance than in other years (which is why LED Par's are getting hired), with more smooth effects etc, other than harsh white light.

Perhaps spend some of the money on some Gel's then :P That's the quick and cheap cure for 'harsh' white light!

 

What are the LED cans going to be used for, there's a good chance they'll be pretty useless for doing general washes unless your hiring top end kit (pixel pars, name brand 3w LED cans, etc). Perhaps look into getting some scrollers?

 

Whats the show? If they're not for washes, but rather 'eye candy' are you sure they'll suit the style of the show?

 

£2k (ex Vat seeing as your a school), should easily get you that lot for 2x weeks if you shop around.. so perhaps you can look at expanding that (specially on the lighting side) to achieve whats been requested.

 

In regards to the last question, I agree with djw1981, there's no easy way to say. Some shows it needs to be very 50/50, sometimes with a small or large bias towards either. Just depends on whats the requirements of the show are as well as what sort of importance has been placed each discipline by 'the management', in this case, school staff. And as mentioned already, whats available for use at the venue/what facilities are all ready in place. I've done jobs where putting in temporary facilities at a venue (i.e. lx bars, mains, mins distribution, staging) has cost just as much as the hire of the actual sound & lx kit, other times, the venue's been fitted out perfectly and all I've had to bring in was lanterns & control. If only it was always that easy!

 

T

[adamcoppard]

Well scrollers are an option, but there was discussion on here about them a long time ago, and LED Par's were suggested as they way forward. Scrollers are an option. And to expand on the lighting side of things:

Three smallish stages. Colour washes that are designed to change depending on scene and age (we are doing Blood Brothers), whilst the washes must also fit into the poor / rich divide.

Then, the Par 16's and ETC's would be used to give a life like chocolate / open light onto the actors.

 

Also, another argument to be bought up into this: it's going to be a big set construction, should I look into putting everything on truss, or stick with T-bars (we can provide the bars, but not the truss) which would surely add a fair bit into the hire.

 

I am on the look out for companies to hire from, and will begin calling round and getting them to come in an give a quote in the new year (I just want to make my headway over the Christmas holidays). This also brings up a good point of, is it goign to be more economical, aswell as providing a greater speciality range if we hired sound from a specialist sound company, and lights from another?

 

The emphasis this year has been put on lighting, as we are performing the theatre, not the musical version (although there is a song (just don't ask)). This is where the boundry mic's come in to picking up the spoken word out of the collective cast, and the four radio mic's to go on the four narrators sitting in the audience. Therefore, more of a budget can be supplied for lighting, and, as has been discussed in production meetings, the lighting should enable us to set the scene to go with the big set we are building.

[Rob_Beech]

From experience in providing sound reinforcement systems and parts thereof for this kind of production for people all over the country for a few years.

 

What tends to happen is on a total budget of £2000 excluding the VAT they'll hire £1850 of lighting at the blink of an eye. Then have enough to hire a pair of speakers and a cd player for sound effects.

 

Of course, the parents complain. I couldn't hear our little timmy, why haven't you got microphones here.

 

Now I'm not saying that they don't need to be SEEN but sometimes people do need to step back and look at things logically.

 

 

It doesn't have to be THAT expensive. If no company in your area is willing to do you a £10 per unit per day and charge you 4 days for a week and a half on radio mics (or better) then it's a poor job isn't it. If you're having 16 that is.

 

 

The north / south divide is sticking out more and more every day at the moment with north M7 prices being cheaper than south LS9 prices as an example.

[adamcoppard]

The north / south divide is sticking out more and more every day at the moment with north M7 prices being cheaper than south LS9 prices as an example.

 

Something I'm finding all to common in research in to prices. Almost everywhere around here is charging similar prices, or sub-hiring from each other, sending prices spirilliing (which is what happened with our 16 mics). The hire company we used only had 4. So the first company hired all the 16 mics in there name, and then hired them out to us for their hire length, whilst wacking an extra x% on to it. Why we didn't just skip the step, but that's what was decided last year.

 

With your M7 example, this isn't going to be worth much to anyone, but what's the furthes, realistically, you should look for an event this sort of size?

 

Of course, the parents complain. I couldn't hear our little timmy, why haven't you got microphones here.

 

Now I'm not saying that they don't need to be SEEN but sometimes people do need to step back and look at things logically.

Don't start me on that. We also get the 'why hasn't my son / daughter been mic'd up when person x, who is less important, has'

This is why I think the ditch the radio mic's, put boundrys out and be done with it. At least then, there is some evidence of mic's :P

 

And, band's well....

[stagemanagement]

In my experience as an in-house (Local Authority venue), with multiple schools and Am-Drams to service, it will matter not what you do or choose, as someone (cast or audience) will always know either: a "better way", of "better kit" or "could have got this at half the price" (stock reply: "yeah-right mate, I've got half this for free!")

 

With a school show, I find boundaries will inevitably get nothing from the incredibly quiet child on stage and every single breath, sigh or "arse-scratch" from the incredibly noisy version of said child that reappears in the wings!!

7 of them just sounds like a nightmare, with so much EQ'ing that it's probably hardly worth the effort to put them out!

 

They also have a habit of watching the movers as they move :P

 

However, YOUR job is to make the person signing your cheque happy!

 

2K's will wash the entire show out and you will end up with them doing nothing but a chase around the audience before and after show or putting them back in the case before opening night!

 

I would imagine that your best bet is a single hire from a single company that can chuck you 4 x 250's, 300's or 600's AND as many rad's as you can blag - the conference market companies should be ripe for you to pluck when they quieten down again in Jan and if you get the booking in their diary early, you may even get a nice surprise on the price.

If you have to split the hire between companies, inevitably their ability to give you a decent price is more limited.

 

And how "far" you should look is only limited by your ability to pick up and drop of the gear, which is infinitely cheaper than having the company do that for you. Remember and factor fuel into any journey versus the difference in price.

[Pete McCrea]

Almost everywhere around here is charging similar prices, or sub-hiring from each other, sending prices spirilliing (which is what happened with our 16 mics). The hire company we used only had 4. So the first company hired all the 16 mics in there name, and then hired them out to us for their hire length, whilst wacking an extra x% on to it. Why we didn't just skip the step, but that's what was decided last year.

 

Welcome to the real world. It's called subhire, and happens all the time. In all likely hood they would have got them at trade, and passed them on to you at their price. It's called business, and by making money, it enables companies to employe people and pay them a wage. The fact that most of the companies are charging simillar prices is possibly good thing, in it means that they are trying to build a viable business in the area. [/rant]

 

If you give your requirements to the several companies, they may suggest alternatives to your listed kit, and as it's stock and possibly give you better discounts on the kit. Have a look at what they suggest and haggle over it. As a rental company, there's nothing worse than a person ringing up, asking for a quote, then going quiet. You then ring them to chase the job, and they tell you they got kit you have from somewhere else for more than you would have charged them..If the show is in Jan/Feb, then they'd quite likely bite your hand off.

[Bobbsy]

There's no such thing as a standard balance between lighting and sound rental. Realistically, it comes down to the style and needs of the show--and you haven't given us details about what show it is.

 

A couple of general thoughts though:

 

First, the director has told you that the show needs more lighting than sound. Fine. The director has the final word and, if I read you correctly that this is "straight" theatre rather than a musical the instincts may be right. I'm not a big fan of radio mics for non musicals--projection should be enough. However, your job is to make sure the director understands the compromises that are being chosen. Boundary mics are useful for a little subtle reinforcement but, as has been said before, will do practically nothing for the quiet-voiced soloist at the back of the stage. Just remember how often parents complain "I can't hear little Suzy" and how rarely you hear "If only they'd had a couple more colour scrollers".

 

Second, and related, be careful with your idea to use seven boudary mics scattered around the stage. I don't know your exact scheme but don't forget that more open mics give you less gain before feedback...and overlapping boundaries can get you into phase cancellations and other nasties.

 

Third, if you're only using 4 wireless and a few wired mics, do you really need the features of something like an LS9? I'd settle for a small A&H or Soundcraft analogue mixer and add a few extra channels of RF it it was me.

 

Bob

[tom_the_LD]

Just a quick question.

 

You say you are looking at about 7 boundries and 4 radios. Why on earth do you need an LS9 then!? You could easily save some money by getting a cheaper desk! When, for example, a Spirirt Folio SX would be cheaper and do exactly what you need it to! (I'm not saying hire the SX it's just being used as an example).

 

Are you running both sound and lights? I can't work this out from the original post. If there is someone doing one and someone doing the other then get together with them and ask them anything they need.

 

As a side note to the scrollers/LED's I would personally have scrollers. How many dimming channels do you plan to hire in?

 

Also, what in house kit is there?

[adamcoppard]

I am running both sonud and lights. Therefore, I am looking for a digital desk (possibly the LS9-16) which I can store before during tech run throughs, have the hotkey's programmed to next scene, and tap it to go forward (exactly the same with the lighting console). Then, whichever demands the most attention (I.e tweaking the sound mix) would get it at that moment in time.

As for in house kit:

1x Mackie 8 Channel Powered Anolouge Mixer

2x Mackie Active 500W Un-powered speakers

3X Sehnheiser Vocalist Mic's (wired)

All interconnecting leads (close to 80M of microphone, and around 60m of Speakon cable)

 

1x Zero 88 Alcora desk

2x Zero 88 Dimmers (6ch 15A)

2x Par 56's

6x Fresnel 500W's

1x Strobe

2x 6 light T-bars

Various interconnecting leads.

 

The plan for the hire would be: bring in a digital desk, and run all sound through it. Also, bring in speakers / amps to go with said desk. Bring in all microphones, and a multicore, whilst using our XLR. Bring in a lighting desk that will be able to handle LED's / colour scrolllers / aux buttons, and hire in said lights to give a stage wash (or use recommended in posts above). Then, some source 4's to pick out the characters, 4 for the stage. Then, were I'm getting a bit stuck is to provide a really narrow angeled, small, beam of light, to go into the audience (from behind, I'm not trying to blind them!) to pick out the narrators we've hidden in the audience.) Get dimmers, smoke, haze etc. to go with all lights.

 

As for the 7 boundry, they would be set out something like this:

Our set is going to be based on a perspective point (coming out from a 90degree point from the back of the hall). As this follows out, two stages will be placed either side, at the end of the point (the street in blood brothers, with one side being the richer side, one side being the porer side (but we are going from 1950 - 1980's)), and one final stage actually at the end of the street, at the beginning of the perespective. Therefore the boundrys were going to be placed such: 2 on each of the end stages (which aren't exactly huge), and 3 around the center stage (1 in the middle, two for L and R respectively).

[Ynot]

I am running both sonud and lights.

Then there's an EASY answer there - find someone else to run one or the other.

Quite honestly it's daft to try to run both disciplines (and do them well) with one person!

Twice the setup, twice the responsibility, twice the headache!

[Rob_Beech]

I wouldn't worry about who's XLRs you're using I'm sure the hire company will supply the necessary leads with the equipment you hire.

 

As for the M7 / LS9 example. It's just an example saying that some people will want £125 a day for an LS9 where as you can get an M7 for that up here. Meaning of course than an LS9 16 is about £70 or less.

 

2 x Mackie Active unpowered speakers.........

 

..ok... To me that says they require 2 amp channels per box and have no crossover in the box. However I'm aware that this is probably untrue.

[tom_the_LD]

As has been said, get in a second sound op.

 

Also, what's the total power intake you have availble for use by lighting?