The State of the Industry an Unsavoury truth!

[lightsource]

Unless you know the facts, then don't slag someone off in a public forum.

 

The facts were the ones stated by your personal friend, so if he is incorrect, perhaps you should address this? He is making you out to look like a Drink Driver

 

 

 

Eeerm, I don't see that, as no one ever said I was the driver, I had a crew of 2 with me, but that's none of you're business. I like the quote he made, as it was a bit of a mad weekend. It was a bit of a personal thing.

 

Well a simple reply here, I can name over 20 local disco's that charge under £100 for a night, so to compete, we have to price accordingly

 

This is exactly what people are saying, your idea of "Competing" is to charge less!! Whats wrong with providing a superior level of service? In regards to the Disco's, you could even try to be a better DJ, but no, your angle is just to be cheaper than the competition

 

Try that one on any major supermarket who purchases from the UK dairy industry. Over 1 dairy farmers are going out of buisiness per week because of it, but we all want cheap milk. So where do most people buy the milk from? Do they care?

 

Many other industries are in the same situation, why should we be any different. Product, price, Performance.

 

I feel a little angst here between a Managers point of view and a workers point of view.

 

Edit to add...

 

Back to the original post.....

 

The state of the industry is what you make it. If you're strong, you can survive, look at the weak points, and iron them out.

Pricing a job is individual to the company,and their overheads..

 

The credit crunch 'should' only affect those who have been lax in their finances, but sadly it also includes various industries who have had to absorb the various price increases for various services.

[ed_]

I, for one, think that everything that can be said about this matter has been. It may be that prices are just that much lower in your area - where I am you would barely get a hire company to deliver and collect (locally!) for £82 plus vat.

 

At the end of the day we can say what we like on this internet forum, but if you're still making a reasonable wage for the effort, skills and investment you have put into the business then I actually don't have a problem with that - and fair play to you too, you must be doing enormous volume and have very cheap staff!

 

What I think people are talking about is the seemingly endless supply of 'budget' operators, who buy a cheap PA and a few crappy disco lamps and go out at unsustainably low prices. 'Joe's Disco' will keep the prices down locally for the two years it is in business until Joe realises he's not making money and goes to work in an office somewhere. But as soon as Joe is gone, there's someone else to take his place, either in the often genuine belief that such a business model is sustainable (if you can reach sufficient sales volume and keep costs down), or because the owner is 16, wants a few quid on the weekends and has no insurance and pays no tax. It's the 'tesco value' model of event technology: the can of beans costs 4p, tastes absolutely dire but just about contains some beans and hey, it was cheap right? It's what consumers want, only they're getting it in this case at the expense of either the budget operator who will go out of business, or the 16 year old hobbyist who will probably get out of the industry as they can't see a future in it.

 

I'd be lying if I said I have never charged too little, everyone does when they start out. But there comes a point for everyone when they have to say 'hey, I want to make a sustainable career of this' and raise their prices to a sustainable level. One of two things will happen: if you're worth it (or sometimes it doesn't matter), people will pay it - happy days. If you're not good enough, or not well known enough, or there isn't enough work, or you're just plain unlucky, nobody will book you and it's off to find another industry. Although I enjoy my work, there is a point where you have to realise the sacrifices you make: the long hours, time away from your family/friends/relationship and at times bloody hard, stressful work. I give my work a lot and expect a fair deal in return - if I'm not going to get paid well then I may as well work in an office and maybe not make a lot of money, but for massively less effort.

[stringman]

Just my 1.8ps worth( new vat rate!!!)

Just skimmed through the posts so what I say might not be relevant!

 

There are different types of clients

 

there are those who want the best and are prepared to pay for it (I have been on jobs where I was given hotel accom and a full rate travel day to a venue 20m from where I Live)

 

There are those that just want the cheapest job and have no loyalty to any hire firm they hop to whoever is cheapest.

 

There are those that are in the middle.

 

 

There are different types of hire companies.

 

" the big boys" have the reputation, do the big jobs for the big clients and charge accordingly.

 

"the small one man bands" bit of kit that they own low overheads, sole income so can undercut almost anyone.

 

"the mid range" do good work but not considered "blue chip" have the kit but not the reputation of the big boys nor charge the prices!

 

Interestingly if you think about it more and more the job will be crewed by freelancers and some of the kit sub hired so youmay find your "big boy" company using kit from the "mid range" and using the "one man band" as a freelance tech.

 

Finally I would like to say to Soundo that I am sad to hear about losing your job.

I have worked with you in the past and wish you all the best

[Paul J Need]

Well done Stringman for bring the post back on course......... ;)

 

We live in a free country (well, almost free) and if someone wants to charge £90 for a days work then that is their right- if someone wants to turn their Sprinter into a mobile motel - good idea (as All the Premier Inns look the same anyhow and the last one was freezing!)

 

The main issue here is one of expectation - If a client can get a PA rig for £200 for a band tour - they will never pay £1250 which is actually more the appropriate rate especially when 3 crew and truck is involved.

 

We will never change peoples attitudes to quality audio unless they are prepared to pay for it (Audio through a £15,000 Midas DOES sound better than through a £1,000 Yamaha) and we may just have to hope the ticket paying public start asking for their money back due to the sound being so Sh*t!

[Dan Gruner]

To make a final comment to this topic, there are some of you who have slagged me of in a public forum, without any knowledge of what I do, or who I am. You've skimmed over my website, without reading the finer details. Go to the testimonials page, and you'll get a better idea.

 

lightscource, I am not slagging you off in a public forum, only responding with my opinion and experiences, to a topic close to my heart!

 

If you're going to have a public website, with information about your business, prices you charge etc, then I think you must be prepared to accept feedback, albeit good or bad, about the content of the site and the practices of your business.....

 

I really don't appreciate it, and actually find some of the posts quite offensive. I've spen't the last 2 hours replying to these post's, rather than reporting them to the mods for deletion, as I'm quite sure the offenders will appreciate, their posts would have probably been deleted if requested.

 

I can't see anything here that would cause the moderators to delete the posts?

 

I have NOTHING to hide, I own a well respected company, in my area, and have sales of over £100K per year. I don't do anyone over, and have a healthy relationship with quite a few of my competitors.

 

Do you mean £100K of equipment sales? If so (and I expect this is the case), you are not needing these gigs to pay a living wage, since you can fall back on the income generated through sales, installs etc. I just can't see your business model otherwise....

 

Dan

[dbuckley]

The main issue here is one of expectation - If a client can get a PA rig for £200 for a band tour - they will never pay £1250 which is actually more the appropriate rate especially when 3 crew and truck is involved.

 

You say "more the appropriate rate", but at the end of the day if 200 quid is getting the job done, what is the client getting for his extra 1050 notes? Or to put it another way, over six times as much money. Will he get something that (to him) is six times as good? Will the client get six times better return on his investment??

[Paul J Need]

The main issue here is one of expectation - If a client can get a PA rig for £200 for a band tour - they will never pay £1250 which is actually more the appropriate rate especially when 3 crew and truck is involved.

 

You say "more the appropriate rate", but at the end of the day if 200 quid is getting the job done, what is the client getting for his extra 1050 notes? Or to put it another way, over six times as much money. Will he get something that (to him) is six times as good? Will the client get six times better return on his investment??

 

Read the above posts and this will make sense - what I mean by appropriate rate is 3 crew for 14 hours and the customer actually paying for the hire (and a small part of paying for the initial investment) does not add up to anything less that around £1000 - the firms who go out at £200-600 per night are just covering the wage bill and not a lot else.

 

People can charge whatever they want to ..........................

[JazzAV]

There will always be someone cheaper, make sure you charge a fair price that allows you to give the client a great event, cover your costs and make a fair reasonable profit.

 

Ignore all the others, if they want to drag it down to the cheapest price let them fight it out. I'd rather have the day off, then go work a 14 hour day with lots of kit and headaches to earn £70. Good luck to them.

[lightsource]

Do you mean £100K of equipment sales? If so (and I expect this is the case), you are not needing these gigs to pay a living wage, since you can fall back on the income generated through sales, installs etc. I just can't see your business model otherwise....

 

Dan

 

 

Sorry Dan, can't be arsed to respond to you're other comments (long week....) but I will to this one..

 

No! the £100k, well actually about £88k is the hire jobs in for next year inc VAT. We fit a niche market, and that is where we excel.

 

Paul J Need.....

 

Well done Stringman for bring the post back on course.........

 

We live in a free country (well, almost free) and if someone wants to charge £90 for a days work then that is their right- if someone wants to turn their Sprinter into a mobile motel - good idea (as All the Premier Inns look the same anyhow and the last one was freezing!)

 

Paul, I wish it had stayed on course from the beginning :(

 

As Paul has hinted in other posts, providing a better sound quality costs, which we can all appreciate......However, the gig promoters in our area do not share the same opinion. We do a few 'bigger' gigs, but it's not where the heart of the company lies. Like I've said, we have our niche market, and (back on topic :D ) the credit crunch may actually be an advantage, as one of the services we provide, is making failing venues profitable again. And that saves jobs.

[live]

As a business you have to adapt to the situation that finances available dictate. Many suppliers are reducing cost price to the trade (not going to blow bubbles up the A**e of the ones on this forum) It's testing times at the moment and will be for the future BUT if anything it'll weed out the scam merchants and the stronger people/companies will ride this out and hopefully look after the freelancers that they can trust or have proved reliable in the past. I know that's what I'm doing. The days of a 100k refit or project are fading fast if I can make 1k or more after paying my team I'm happy.

It's 2008 not 1998 after all!

Damn Tony Blair!!

[lightsource]

As a business you have to adapt to the situation that finances available dictate.

 

Exactly :D

[dbuckley]

The main issue here is one of expectation - If a client can get a PA rig for £200 for a band tour - they will never pay £1250 which is actually more the appropriate rate especially when 3 crew and truck is involved.

 

You say "more the appropriate rate", but at the end of the day if 200 quid is getting the job done, what is the client getting for his extra 1050 notes? Or to put it another way, over six times as much money. Will he get something that (to him) is six times as good? Will the client get six times better return on his investment??

 

Read the above posts and this will make sense - what I mean by appropriate rate is 3 crew for 14 hours and the customer actually paying for the hire (and a small part of paying for the initial investment) does not add up to anything less that around £1000 - the firms who go out at £200-600 per night are just covering the wage bill and not a lot else.

 

 

Sorry to quote the lot, but you've exactly not answered the question.

 

You've told me your story, but thats not at all interesting, its the same story as every other supply company in the known universe.

 

Tell me why from the point of view of the customer your company is worth paying six times as much for as some other company.

[soundo26]

Tell me why from the point of view of the customer your company is worth paying six times as much for as some other company.

For any company in this business to remain viable, certain things must be considered;

 

If you have equipment it must be stored, maintained, replaced, upgraded

Enough crew must be provided to rig/derig without killing them (directly or indirectly)

To this end accommodation may be required

Vehicles, O licenses, Fuel, congestion charges, LEZ charges, Parking charges/tickets must be covered

Overheads must be covered

Insurances must be covered.

The job must be completed to a high & professional standard

 

You can't do this on some of the prices quoted here no matter how much you delude yourselves..........Get Real!!

As stated previously, do the job right or don't do it at all!

[musht]

The job must be completed to a high & professional standard

 

There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.

John Ruskin,

English critic, essayist, & reformer (1819 - 1900)

[bjkered]

The furniture company that gives 0% finance for 4 years....how many here would wait 4 years for payment?

Remember the furniture store gets it money from a Finanace company upfront The Finanace company in turn hope you default on payments and then they get thei fingers into you

 

Dare I say how we are into a credit crunch

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

The thing that all ways fascinates me about this industry and reflective in many of the topics in the blue room, are the number of people who start of learning the trade and then want to set up their own Hire /events company.

 

I am Happy to say before going on " yes I have thrown those same bricks in a Glass House".

 

You see it in the questions such as I want to "Buy"some kit to light/PA the Local Band and then grow it into a business.

Then Questions about how to set up in Business.

 

I always wonder how many have the Insurance / test and repair facilities, Back up equipment for failures during a show , depreciation and re-investment

 

How many operate on a wing and a Prayer ad undercut main business

 

I always get a feeling that this Drives a Bottom end Culture ( ok PRICE) for events as opposed to Quality and Service along with a professional business case which would drive realistic busines pricing and not just ell cheapo with NO long Term Business Plan or ideas.

 

How many of these operations mention Pensions, and what they are going to do when they retire. If they started to look at a long term plan they might realise how much the should be charging and how much they need to earn to grow and sustain a business.

 

I always feel they will go bust after a year or so and in the mean time leave a legacy for the rest of the industry. Any way It just seems through this industry we spawn a lot of "one man COMPANIES" where as in IT we see lots of Freelances working for large recruitment agencies as the engineers do not actually want to own/run the company

 

Any way that is just one thought on a very wide ranging topic that can head off at many different angles However an interesting topic this.