The State of the Industry an Unsavoury truth!

[Pete McCrea]

I think you're missing my point here, Pete.

Likewise. Maybe I need to phrase it differently. Someone mentioned building a sustainable industry. This is I guess what I'm trying to say. Hacking peoples knees off does no good to the industry, making it hard for all involved. Looking at your website, I wonder how you make it work. Your charging £130 inc VAT for a crewed small PA Hire. And that's including VAT and the engineer. If you have two of those gigs on a day, needing two 'Engineers' how on earth do you make any money? You also quote a 'Pro' Engineer for £100 for an 8 hour day. The 'Pros' I know, and would trust with our reputation, would laugh me off the phone if I offered them £82 for a days work (£82 because your site states all prices include VAT).

 

That money buys any new gear and pays the employees their wages, If you don't like it, would you be prepared to take the pay cut, or just be laid off for a few months. Because if the ###### hit the fan, that would be the option you would be given.

 

Funny thing is I'm fully aware of that. The economy has taken a turn for the worse, so we've assessed the options, and various scenarios. Those range from carrying on as is, right through to winding up and flogging the kit. We've chosen our path, and I've stated to the guys I employ that we'll get through this a be a stronger company for it. We will not go bust, I and don't intend to lay off employees. We're going to work our nuts off to get there, but I'm also going to try an build the industry up, not simply cut peoples knees off for the work, as I want to be in the industry, and it to be stronger in 2 years time.

 

 

We regularly charge list price. To end users. It's not a token price. It's what we have calculated, and believe that an end client should pay, and is in line with those in the area. That way we are trying our best to build a sustainable industry.

 

Until someone comes along to undercut you, then you go bust and they win. You're unemployed, they're happy..

 

Get the picture. There are people out there prepared to do that.

 

Success is mostly gained from the demise of others.

 

Every job you win, someone else has lost.

 

Welcome to the real world.

 

That's business.

As said above I know that. I've been in the industry at some level for 10 years now, and running a successful company for the last 3 years. We've lost work, and we've gained work. But all along I would hope we've helped to try and build a sustainable industry.

[Stuart91]

The furniture company that gives 0% finance for 4 years....how many here would wait 4 years for payment?

 

These deals work because at the end of the 4 years (by which time they have forgotten all about their sofa) the hapless customer gets hammered with interest if they don't pay off the full balance immediately. And these types of deal are marketed particularly aggressively at customers who will be less likely to pay it off. (There is a great deal of data collected and analysed in order to "profile" customers)

 

Of course, this kind of arrangement could only work for consumer transactions, it would be tricky to do between businesses. The thing that interests me is that there is innovation in that market: someone came up with a deal (4 years no pay) which would attract customers away from their competitors. It was a different selling point other than the price of the goods. You can be sure that the first person to come up with it made a truckload of money, and everyone else in that market had to scramble to keep up. I wonder if there are other techniques or additional services that could be applied to our industry?

[Dan Gruner]

I think you're missing my point here, Pete.

Likewise. Maybe I need to phrase it differently. Someone mentioned building a sustainable industry. This is I guess what I'm trying to say. Hacking peoples knees off does no good to the industry, making it hard for all involved. Looking at your website, I wonder how you make it work. Your charging £130 inc VAT for a crewed small PA Hire. And that's including VAT and the engineer. If you have two of those gigs on a day, needing two 'Engineers' how on earth do you make any money? You also quote a 'Pro' Engineer for £100 for an 8 hour day. The 'Pros' I know, and would trust with our reputation, would laugh me off the phone if I offered them £82 for a days work (£82 because your site states all prices include VAT).

 

Never mind £130 inc VAT - according to this chap (lightsource) profile, he (they) can supply a fully "engineered" 1500w "rms" PA for £70 !! Is that including or excluding VAT??

 

I don't want this thread to turn into a slanging match, but I'm sorry lightsource, can you please explain the logic behind this ridiculously low rate?

 

I can only assume you have a good income elsewhere and that the sound/lighting game is a hobby to you?

 

Dan

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Funny thing is I'm fully aware of that. The economy has taken a turn for the worse, so we've assessed the options, and various scenarios. Those range from carrying on as is, right through to winding up and flogging the kit. We've chosen our path, and I've stated to the guys I employ that we'll get through this a be a stronger company for it. We will not go bust, I and don't intend to lay off employees. We're going to work our nuts off to get there, but I'm also going to try an build the industry up, not simply cut peoples knees off for the work, as I want to be in the industry, and it to be stronger in 2 years time.

 

Here here... I'll raise a glass to that!

 

Dan

[soundo26]

For the rates many of the guys in the undercutting businesses charge, I certainly wouldn't want to work for them, illegally long hours, sleeping in the van etc. This is what we are trying to get away from. It's all about being professional and doing things right, it's impossible to do that on a shoestring!

 

It doesn't have to be dog eat dog, that's what causes the problems, but whilst that attitude remains in these "companies" all that will happen is the work gets shoddier and the end users will all be complaining about the quality of the industry, Is that what you really want guys??? Just remember, you get exactly what you pay for and if you charge peanuts you really do get monkeys, unfortunately, that's all that will be left soon if things carry on the way it is now because the true professionals will not stay around to work that way!

[Sound In Gloucestershire]

hrmm im not often a fan of the blue room "elitism", but in this instance I totally agree, I disagree with what Lightsource has been saying, then upon closer inspection of his website, is he even in the same marketplace?

 

PA with engineer and lighting £90

PA with engineer and lighting for 500 people £230

 

5 hour disco, average party £90!!! (that magic £90 sum again)

5 hour disco for 500 people £130!!????

 

I am baffled that people can charge so low for such services, in my opinion this is exactly the sort of people this thread is about. Why put prices for jobs on a website? Let them enquire, you give them a quote for each individual job.

 

By all means, we probably all offer discounts for certain jobs, midweek work etc, but this sort of pricing is just ridiculous. "When only the best is good enough". These prices seem cheap even for "cash in hand" work, but they include VAT as well???!!!

 

"Cheers again for a great gig its just a shame more didnt turn out the lazy ######!

I'm still not shure how you did it -

Drive 200 miles from Durham to Corby, set up full PA and superb lighting rig, sound engineer for 3 bands, take it all down again, get pissed until after 4AM ! . Then get up about 9am drive 150 miles from Corby to Manchester. Take your gear upstairs & Set up full PA and lights AGAIN, sound for a load more bands. take it all down AGAIN and drive another 150 miles from Manchester back to Durham !

HOW THE ###### DID YOU DO IT !

Is it the diet of Ciggies and cheap wine ? "

[Guest lightnix]

...illegally long hours, sleeping in the van etc. This is what we are trying to get away from. It's all about being professional and doing things right...

 

It doesn't have to be dog eat dog...

Like I said... common goals :D

[Dan Gruner]

hrmm im not often a fan of the blue room "elitism", but in this instance I totally agree, I disagree with what Lightsource has been saying, then upon closer inspection of his website, is he even in the same marketplace?

 

How on earth does "elitism" even come into this conversation?

 

After having a closer look at some of Lightsource's prices, I am even more disgusted. 5 hour disco for £90, Small band PA hire - with engineer for £70 (might have mentioned this already)? Don't forget, these prices supposedly include VAT! I would love to see this companies PL/Indemnity/PAT/TAX paperwork (if they can afford to have any).

 

Sorry, after recently loosing a job to an ankle biter, this subject touches a raw nerve!

[soundo26]

hrmm im not often a fan of the blue room "elitism", but in this instance I totally agree, "

 

 

This is not about elitism, it's all about professionalism, there are no elitists here, but if we abandon professionalism we might as well all pack up & leave it to the cowboys! How can we be classed as elitists for trying to keep standards up whilst staying in work? Be sensible!!!!

[ed_]

I would question the intelligence of any client who has faith in receiving quality equipment, labour and transport for such figures as have been quoted above.

 

Likewise, I would question any supplier charging such rates as to how they expect a reasonable income (or actually, anything at all other than debts after paying off the equipment, the van, insurance, accountants, training...).

 

Personally, as a young freelancer whose main business is the supply of my own labour, I found when starting out that not only does one quality, properly paid job a week earn the same amount of money as three bottom-feeder gigs - it gains you a reputation as a serious operator, and one proper gig a week soon turns into as many as you can handle.

 

I have seen a few hire companies come and go - every new operation has to undercut to some extent to get a foothold, and this means in the early days of their business some corners get cut and the owner works too many hours for not enough money. The key is to get the foothold without undercutting too much, then make the considerable effort to raise your rates as you raise the quality of your service to 'proper' levels. But as mentioned above, why snipe a £1k job by pitching at £300? You'll never get your rate up to £1k again. Those that I have seen do this I still work for to this day. Those that haven't have disappeared...

[Rob_Beech]

Long hours and sleeping in the van isn't something that concerns me too much.

 

Whilst I agree with the majority here, we do have to understand there is a limit and our "fee" is sometimes limited by other things. There are certain NAMED acts touring the country who rarely have more than £400-£500 or so for a substantial system. To me, if I can do these gigs and earn money from them (ie they're not 300 miles away) then I'm happy to help. I suppose to argue it from the other side we could say, the band only get a set price (which is very often too low) which is because the agents will fight amongst themselves and put bands in venues for next to no money at all. This means they have limited budget for PA if they don't have their own.

 

The venues want the cheapest price for a band, and often can't afford any more money. This is because the public want the cheapest price for their seat in the theatre, or their caravan at a holiday park etc. SO there IS some element of price cutting, but there is of course a limit as to how low one can possibly go.

 

It's the people that go and do that job for £200 that destroy the industry. Once they've done that, even if it sounded crap (there's a damn good chance of this) they'll get asked back because crap sound at £200is £200 cheaper than good sound at £400, even though it's crap. This means that anyone now who charges over £200 is expensive, and you lose the job. The agent then knocks £100 off the band price to beat the others by ANOTHER £100.

 

So whilst SOMETIMES charging £1000 to put a PA in to a hotel for a band on a Saturday evening 100 miles from base is going to lose you the job, it doesn't mean that £200 is acceptable either.

 

We all give discounts, we've all taken in a small vocal PA for little more than a reasonable engineers rate for a few days.

 

Remember, each time you go out for £70, you could have gone out for £100, £150, £300. OR for the larger system at £230, you could have done that for £500. You could do 2 of them a night because you could have got a local company to do it for £400 as a sub rate, making you £100 on the job and keeping the client. Nobody else is going to work for that money so you have to turn work down, the client goes elsewhere and can't understand how expensive it is, nobody gets the job, the industry loses out.

 

If I send out 3 systems for theatres on the same night and get a 4th in, the money will be good enough to sub it to someone else and still earn a little from it for making the phone calls and organising things. A 5th gig I can take a hit on, hire a van and an engineer and sub in some kit from a local hire place and still make money. It keeps the client happy, but it still charges the CLIENT the end price. I may not make much on that 5th gig but I've not undercut anyone doing it and the client remains happy.

 

At £195 (or so) excluding vat, for a band pa for 500 peoples, if you can do the job and do the job WELL I've got 450 gigs for you in 2009.

 

I'm a relatively small company on an unimaginably smaller scale than the large companies, think Brit Row, SSE etc. I don't have a fancy big warehouse, nor do I have a bunch of employees and half a dozen trucks. Nor do I have 300 of each item in hire stock. However, I still need over £300 a week before I can go to tesco's and buy anything to eat. If I were charging that sort of money taken out of the expenses I'd need to have done 3 gigs MYSELF taking NOBODY with me before I could buy a loaf of bread.

 

I guess the sad truth is, that someone with NO overheads, eg, no PLI, no Equipment insurance, they already have a battered old van that's cheap to insure cos they're over 25 and they have a nice big double garage to store their kit in, 3 gigs a week making £100 after expenses is something you can live on. If they have a partner also in work, it all helps. It then sends the people doing it properly out of business.

 

Rob

[Guest lightnix]

Long hours and sleeping in the van isn't something that concerns me too much...

It may not concern you now, while you are in your early-mid 20's; but what about in 10 years' time... or 20? Will you be happy doing those kind hours and sleeping in the van, for that kind of money, when you're 45? ;)

 

...The question you have to ask, is weather to go out on a £150 gig, or stay at home, watch The X Factor, and earn nothing. Reality...

Correction: Your reality. Not mine :)

 

we do have to understand there is a limit and our "fee" is sometimes limited by other things...

The only limits are the ones you set for yourself.

 

Remember the Gucci family slogan: Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten ;)

[Rob_Beech]

When I'm 45 (if I get that far) I'll probably NOT want to do the long hours or sleep in the van. When that is the case, I won't do the long hours, or sleep in the van. As it stands I'm nearly 25 and I'm happy to do that on gigs. I'd sooner NOT, but I'll do that to get the job done. However, the reasoning behind this is not the same as other people's reasoning.

 

I'll sleep in my van (which incidentally has 3 beds, and aux heater and a dvd player so is a little more equip than your average sprinter) if it helps ME. For example, if I have a gig in Weymouth followed by one in Glasgow. I'll set off through the night and sleep in the van where I need to sleep. That way I can do both gigs and keep MY money up rather than getting someone else to cover one thus halving my money. The price to the client doesn't change either way. I could request a hotel when I got to glasgow at 7am, but for 4 hours it's not worth it and if I can keep silly costs down for the Client, they're happier. In 20 years time I might not want to do that, but I'll decide that when the time comes, it's not my concern at the moment.

 

I'm not doing other people out of business by sleeping in my van, I'm doing the same 2 jobs that I was offered, there is no difference in price to the client so nobody is getting undercut, and I get to do both jobs and keep my turnover where it should be.

 

Dr and the Medics are a regular client of mine. They'll do a gig for £1250+vat. There's 6 of them based all around the country. By the time their agents have had their 15%, any more than £400-£450 for a PA is not cost effective, they might aswell NOT PLAY. It's small venues, it's easy work, it's incredibly good fun and it's money for old rope. Nobody has been undercut here as this is what they can afford, if someone says £200 to them. THEY are undercutting, though they'd probably get told to sod off.

[slim_mcslim]

We regularly charge list price. To end users. It's not a token price. It's what we have calculated, and believe that an end client should pay, and is in line with those in the area. That way we are trying our best to build a sustainable industry.

 

Well you are very lucky, have a low list price, or if not I want your clients!

 

Once they've done that, even if it sounded crap (there's a damn good chance of this) they'll get asked back because crap sound at £200is £200 cheaper than good sound at £400, even though it's crap. This means that anyone now who charges over £200 is expensive, and you lose the job. The agent then knocks £100 off the band price to beat the others by ANOTHER £100.

 

And herein lies one of the problems with the whole industry, lets say Bobs PA* does a poor sounding gig for £200 the client Dave gets a couple of complaints about the sound quality but overall is pleased cause he only paid £200 and he may or maynot use Bob again. So Dave has another gig and decides to up his game, has spare cash to play with so decideds to get a much better PA system as this is a big name gig, so he opts for some French PA from a company based in Birmingham. Said PA company turn up charge £1600 for technically a much better, flashier nicely carpeted PA system, however it still sounds rubbish and Dave has more complaints... What is Dave to do? (*Names changed to protect the innocent etc)

What I am saying is top dollar for industry best sometimes isn't! and can sometimes leave as much of a bitter taste as £200 for Bobs PA.

 

We too are beginning to feel the pinch in this time, but unlike some of the posts on here, Lightsources prices don't offend me, people are entirely free to charge what they want, thats why we have a free market economy! People in business have to set a price that they are happy to charge, as a propper business ideally your business model should reflect your costs/overheads and then profit. I run a small company, I am aware of my costs, there is no way I would ever think about charging our crew out at the rates listed on Lightsources website (but that doesn't mean my clients wouldn't wish that we did charge those prices), but there would not be enough hours in the day to cover our costs. I know I need to make at least £5k a week just to keep my head above water, so I am not even interested in competing for the £200 work that is being argued about here. But on the other hand I have no objection of renting out kit cheap when it is not going out doing anything else, providing there is no hassle involved in the work if someone wants to give me £250 for a projector that would otherwise be sat on the shelf then who am I to complain, even if this represents a 72% discount from list.

 

P.

[lightsource]

Never mind £130 inc VAT - according to this chap (lightsource) profile, he (they) can supply a fully "engineered" 1500w "rms" PA for £70 !! Is that including or excluding VAT??

 

I don't want this thread to turn into a slanging match, but I'm sorry lightsource, can you please explain the logic behind this ridiculously low rate?

 

I can only assume you have a good income elsewhere and that the sound/lighting game is a hobby to you?

 

Dan

 

Yes, that s correct. That's the pub rig, based on 4x JBL 2x15 full range cabs and a QSC PLX1602 power amp. How much do you think a 'local young band' can afford to pay when it's a pub with 30 punters? Based in the North East of England, prices are very different up here, but then so is the cost of living.

 

If you'd have read the rest of my 'rates' page, then you should have noticed the sentence at the top of the page that said.....

 

My website.........

Prices quoted below should be used as a rough guide only. All prices INCLUDE VAT and vary due to individual requirements, such as - size of venue, distance of venue, hours of event, extra crew requirements, stairs etc...etc... etc, so please call us with your requirements.

 

My company is my sole income ;)

 

Funny thing is I'm fully aware of that. The economy has taken a turn for the worse, so we've assessed the options, and various scenarios. Those range from carrying on as is, right through to winding up and flogging the kit. We've chosen our path, and I've stated to the guys I employ that we'll get through this a be a stronger company for it. We will not go bust, I and don't intend to lay off employees. We're going to work our nuts off to get there, but I'm also going to try an build the industry up, not simply cut peoples knees off for the work, as I want to be in the industry, and it to be stronger in 2 years time.

 

Well said Pete, I think we'll all look back in a couple of years. Stay positive and focussed. At least you've already taken stock of the situation.

 

For the rates many of the guys in the undercutting businesses charge, I certainly wouldn't want to work for them, illegally long hours, sleeping in the van etc. This is what we are trying to get away from. It's all about being professional and doing things right, it's impossible to do that on a shoestring!

 

It doesn't have to be dog eat dog, that's what causes the problems, but whilst that attitude remains in these "companies" all that will happen is the work gets shoddier and the end users will all be complaining about the quality of the industry, Is that what you really want guys??? Just remember, you get exactly what you pay for and if you charge peanuts you really do get monkeys, unfortunately, that's all that will be left soon if things carry on the way it is now because the true professionals will not stay around to work that way!

 

What you charge also depends on the area you live in. We only sleep in the van when we're parked outside a venue for more than one night, it's just like camping in a metal tent, with a full electricity supply to the vehicle. Strangely, we don't charge peanuts, and I don't believe any of my crew are monkeys.....although I will re-check the birth certificates ;)

 

 

hrmm im not often a fan of the blue room "elitism", but in this instance I totally agree, I disagree with what Lightsource has been saying, then upon closer inspection of his website, is he even in the same marketplace?

 

PA with engineer and lighting £90

PA with engineer and lighting for 500 people £230

 

5 hour disco, average party £90!!! (that magic £90 sum again)

5 hour disco for 500 people £130!!????

 

I am baffled that people can charge so low for such services, in my opinion this is exactly the sort of people this thread is about. Why put prices for jobs on a website? Let them enquire, you give them a quote for each individual job.

 

By all means, we probably all offer discounts for certain jobs, midweek work etc, but this sort of pricing is just ridiculous. "When only the best is good enough". These prices seem cheap even for "cash in hand" work, but they include VAT as well???!!!

 

"Cheers again for a great gig its just a shame more didnt turn out the lazy ######!

I'm still not shure how you did it -

Drive 200 miles from Durham to Corby, set up full PA and superb lighting rig, sound engineer for 3 bands, take it all down again, get pissed until after 4AM ! . Then get up about 9am drive 150 miles from Corby to Manchester. Take your gear upstairs & Set up full PA and lights AGAIN, sound for a load more bands. take it all down AGAIN and drive another 150 miles from Manchester back to Durham !

HOW THE ###### DID YOU DO IT !

Is it the diet of Ciggies and cheap wine ? "

 

 

Firstly, I'll reply to you're quote from my website, whith I do find a little offensive. That was from one of my PERSONAL friends, who I've known since 1984, He put a gig on in a village hall in the middle of nowhere, I said I'd do the sound for the gig FOR FREE, as a favour to a friend, who has helped me considerably over the years, and I stayed at his house for a couple of days to do a little 'catch up'......I also wasn't actually pissed, I'd had half a bottle of wine, then 'fell asleep', as he and his wife were arguing, and I didn't want to be a part of it. My main job was in Manchester the next day, and there was a full crew ready for the get-in.......It also wasn't 9am, it was more like 12pm, because I didn't get to Manchester till about 2pm, and I stopped off for lunch on the way.

 

Unless you know the facts, then don't slag someone off in a public forum.

 

To reply to the rest of you're post, they are realistic rates, for basic jobs where I live. Add-ons and crew bump the prices up.

 

hrmm im not often a fan of the blue room "elitism", but in this instance I totally agree, I disagree with what Lightsource has been saying, then upon closer inspection of his website, is he even in the same marketplace?

 

How on earth does "elitism" even come into this conversation?

 

After having a closer look at some of Lightsource's prices, I am even more disgusted. 5 hour disco for £90, Small band PA hire - with engineer for £70 (might have mentioned this already)? Don't forget, these prices supposedly include VAT! I would love to see this companies PL/Indemnity/PAT/TAX paperwork (if they can afford to have any).

 

Sorry, after recently loosing a job to an ankle biter, this subject touches a raw nerve!

 

Well a simple reply here, I can name over 20 local disco's that charge under £100 for a night, so to compete, we have to price accordingly. If you'd even bothered looking at the rest of the website, before slagging me off in a public forum, then you would be aware that I have £ 5 million, public Liability, and we pat test regularly. All paperwork can be supplied, but not to someone with an an attitude like your's....... Ohh and you missed another bit of paperwork, in you're slagging.....we also have a full risk assesment, and Health And Safety document - tried and tested.

 

Maybe the ankle-biter should have been a wake up call B-)

 

I would question the intelligence of any client who has faith in receiving quality equipment, labour and transport for such figures as have been quoted above.

 

Allen&Heath, JBL, Lexicon, Crown, Mackie, Shure, AKG. And a Long Wheelbase Merc Sprinter, only 4 years old.

 

 

At £195 (or so) excluding vat, for a band pa for 500 peoples, if you can do the job and do the job WELL I've got 450 gigs for you in 2009.

Rob

 

Wouldn't even bat an eyelid, that would be fairly easy, (although a logistical nightmare on my part), depending on the venue spec's locations and timescale. Have been working with a promoter who has a habit of throwing hundreds of gigs at us per year, (he's already booked us for 105 gigs for 09, and that's just the first quarter.

 

The only concern Rob, would be the 450 gigs in 1 year.... It would depend on the locations of the double-bookings, as there's only 365 days in a year :)

 

 

Long hours and sleeping in the van isn't something that concerns me too much...

It may not concern you now, while you are in your early-mid 20's; but what about in 10 years' time... or 20? Will you be happy doing those kind hours and sleeping in the van, for that kind of money, when you're 45? :huh:

 

...The question you have to ask, is weather to go out on a £150 gig, or stay at home, watch The X Factor, and earn nothing. Reality...

Correction: Your reality. Not mine :)

 

we do have to understand there is a limit and our "fee" is sometimes limited by other things...

The only limits are the ones you set for yourself.

 

Remember the Gucci family slogan: Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten ;)

 

Try saying that to the quality UK manufacturers, who have gone bust over the last few years, due to cheap foreign imports.

And there are many

 

Lightnix.... I'm 41, and have no problem with the back of a van, I make it homely <_<

 

To make a final comment to this topic, there are some of you who have slagged me of in a public forum, without any knowledge of what I do, or who I am. You've skimmed over my website, without reading the finer details. Go to the testimonials page, and you'll get a better idea.

 

I really don't appreciate it, and actually find some of the posts quite offensive. I've spen't the last 2 hours replying to these post's, rather than reporting them to the mods for deletion, as I'm quite sure the offenders will appreciate, their posts would have probably been deleted if requested.

 

I have NOTHING to hide, I own a well respected company, in my area, and have sales of over £100K per year. I don't do anyone over, and have a healthy relationship with quite a few of my competitors.

 

However I will say, buisiness is buisiness, and we all have to protect ourselves for the future.

[Sound In Gloucestershire]

Unless you know the facts, then don't slag someone off in a public forum.

 

The facts were the ones stated by your personal friend, so if he is incorrect, perhaps you should address this? He is making you out to look like a Drink Driver

 

Well a simple reply here, I can name over 20 local disco's that charge under £100 for a night, so to compete, we have to price accordingly

 

This is exactly what people are saying, your idea of "Competing" is to charge less!! Whats wrong with providing a superior level of service? In regards to the Disco's, you could even try to be a better DJ, but no, your angle is just to be cheaper than the competition