Adding to Forty Line system

[bassfreak]

Hi, I run a Forty Line system for a band who plays medium sized concert halls. I'm quite happy with how it sounds but think the bottom end lacks real thump for the style of music they play. I'm thinking of adding some 18" subs to the rig maybe even to replace the QL152 subs. Been looking at either the Fifty Line FL18's or maybe the RCF 4-Pro 8001-AS. They are both similar spec'd and was wondering if anyone had a preference or whethter compatability would be an issue?

 

Cheers.

[johndenim]

Hi.

I have been looking at your system with the intention of buying one. (the fourty line that is)

 

I have heard the twin 15" and think its great, infact I'd say that it is better than the single 18" dB sub. can't comment on the RCF unit as Iv'e only heard the 15".

To improve on the ql152's I'm thinking twin 18's?

You say "fourty line system" I'm assuming you have the single fourtyline 15" woofer as well?

 

John Denim.

[bassfreak]

Hi.

I have been looking at your system with the intention of buying one. (the fourty line that is)

 

I have heard the twin 15" and think its great, infact I'd say that it is better than the single 18" dB sub. can't comment on the RCF unit as Iv'e only heard the 15".

To improve on the ql152's I'm thinking twin 18's?

You say "fourty line system" I'm assuming you have the single fourtyline 15" woofer as well?

 

John Denim.

 

Yeah the full system, it does sound great but can't seem to get the thump like you can with 18" subs. Yeah if I was to improve I would probably put 2 18" per side.

[adamburgess]

Hi, I run a Forty Line system for a band who plays medium sized concert halls. I'm quite happy with how it sounds but think the bottom end lacks real thump for the style of music they play. I'm thinking of adding some 18" subs to the rig maybe even to replace the QL152 subs. Been looking at either the Fifty Line FL18's or maybe the RCF 4-Pro 8001-AS. They are both similar spec'd and was wondering if anyone had a preference or whethter compatability would be an issue?

 

Cheers.

:)

 

It's not the system. It's the operator, Phil. Or hire in... I did say this many times!!!

[bassfreak]

Hi, I run a Forty Line system for a band who plays medium sized concert halls. I'm quite happy with how it sounds but think the bottom end lacks real thump for the style of music they play. I'm thinking of adding some 18" subs to the rig maybe even to replace the QL152 subs. Been looking at either the Fifty Line FL18's or maybe the RCF 4-Pro 8001-AS. They are both similar spec'd and was wondering if anyone had a preference or whethter compatability would be an issue?

 

Cheers.

:)

 

It's not the system. It's the operator, Phil. Or hire in... I did say this many times!!!

 

We hired George in and this was his opinion too, I saw a band using the TTs18's and they sounded bloody amazing, you're never gonna get that same thump from using 15" bins.

[johndenim]

But you have six 15" speakers in your cabs.

 

As opposed to two 18".

there are many different ways to reproduce decent bass or "thump".

 

if you list your kit, inc mixer, drum mics etc BR will have a better understanding of your situation.

 

I have just been looking at the specs, to be honest there is not that much difference between the Fifty line and the Fourty line.

The one thing I can see is that the drivers in the 50 line are RCF.

 

John Denim.

[Sirch Sound]

John, theres alt more to it than more drivers.

 

Yes he may be replacing them for less quantity, which isnt the best idea, however its perfectly possible that the 15's cannot reach the fequenceys that the op is looking for. You will generally get more Spl from a twin 15, but a single 18" is definatly going to be 'felt more', especially if your looking at the RCF 8001-as, its a bloody brilliant sub, we have one in our showroom with a 6001 sitting ontop of it and it really does knock the air of your lungs.

 

However I do have to agree with John in that to really get the result you appear to want, you should be looking at twin 18"'s, especially if your playing in concet halls! Unfortunaly the only twin 18" sub RCF make is in the TT range, which carrys a very hefty price tag.

 

My personal opinion would be to hire yourself in some 18's and see what it sounds like, its very hard to guess from specs and estimates.

 

Rich

[bassfreak]

John, theres alt more to it than more drivers.

 

Yes he may be replacing them for less quantity, which isnt the best idea, however its perfectly possible that the 15's cannot reach the fequenceys that the op is looking for. You will generally get more Spl from a twin 15, but a single 18" is definatly going to be 'felt more', especially if your looking at the RCF 8001-as, its a bloody brilliant sub, we have one in our showroom with a 6001 sitting ontop of it and it really does knock the air of your lungs.

 

However I do have to agree with John in that to really get the result you appear to want, you should be looking at twin 18"'s, especially if your playing in concet halls! Unfortunaly the only twin 18" sub RCF make is in the TT range, which carrys a very hefty price tag.

 

My personal opinion would be to hire yourself in some 18's and see what it sounds like, its very hard to guess from specs and estimates.

 

Rich

 

Cheers Rich, rather than replace the 2x15" subs I would just add the 18" to the system maybe placing the sub(s) centre. I think the TT range is definately out of the prive range at the minute although they do sound good and a guy has offered me a good price on a pair of the 1x18".

 

The RCF subs are a different type of sub to ours, which are bandpass, they give you the volume but not the thud of a front-facing Bass reflex system.

[johndenim]

John, theres alt more to it than more drivers.

 

Yes he may be replacing them for less quantity, which isnt the best idea, however its perfectly possible that the 15's cannot reach the fequenceys that the op is looking for. You will generally get more Spl from a twin 15, but a single 18" is definatly going to be 'felt more',

Rich

 

Depends on the frequency you apply.

For example, I had a band member approach me regarding the Peavey passive cabs, 215 or 118, was the question.

I said, try them both.

He did just so, and the twin 15" was the better sound. (I was there at the time)

 

Although Peavey are not the best cabs in the world, it showed that with even a budget cab, someone who sets them up right can get a pretty decent sound.

spl and 'feel' go hand in hand, if you look at the actual dimensions, x2 15 = 30, x1 18 = well, 18.

So really its a 30" transducer vs an 18".

Front facing cabinets do not produce lower frequencies bassfreak, its about quality of components and cabinet design, use of acoustic materials, etc.

 

At least we agree on one thing Rich, a twin 18 to add is the way to go.

Even so with a 4 way system in the pipeline a lms should also be used to give the rig it's full potential.

 

John Denim.

[Sirch Sound]

John, theres alt more to it than more drivers.

 

Yes he may be replacing them for less quantity, which isnt the best idea, however its perfectly possible that the 15's cannot reach the fequenceys that the op is looking for. You will generally get more Spl from a twin 15, but a single 18" is definatly going to be 'felt more',

Rich

 

Depends on the frequency you apply.

For example, I had a band member approach me regarding the Peavey passive cabs, 215 or 118, was the question.

I said, try them both.

He did just so, and the twin 15" was the better sound. (I was there at the time)

 

 

Im not saying that a twin 15 wont sound better, it may well do, but for that gut wrenching thud an 18+ will be alot more effective.

 

 

spl and 'feel' go hand in hand, if you look at the actual dimensions, x2 15 = 30, x1 18 = well, 18.

 

Again it depends on frequencey, just because there is more driver surface area it does not mean that it will be at the right frequencey to give the effect the OP requires, a 15" wont produce the very low end frequences that a 18"+ is able to.

 

So really its a 30" transducer vs an 18".

 

Not that simple again, you cannot simply add up the size of the drivers to work out which is going to give you the biggest thud, yes the twin 15 will move more air, but it wont go as low.

 

 

Even so with a 4 way system in the pipeline a lms should also be used to give the rig it's full potential.

 

Agreed, unless hes already got an outboard rack.

 

Rich

[johndenim]

Ok, myself and Rich have given you a couple of options.

 

If you want to replace all of the subs you have you really need twin 18"'s, whatever make they may be. ( and an amp as the tops are passive, as you know)

If you want to add to your existing system, maybe the FL18 would do the job but you will need a lms to manage the frequencies.

Also you need to think about how you will stack these on stage, a forty line system, consisting of (each side) a twin 15" cab, single 15" cab, 12" top and an FL18 underneath will be about 8' high, which will not give you a very good dispersion.

 

John Denim.

[Shaggy]

Again it depends on frequencey, just because there is more driver surface area it does not mean that it will be at the right frequencey to give the effect the OP requires, a 15" wont produce the very low end frequences that a 18"+ is able to.

 

It's not as simple as bigger driver size = more thud. It is perfectly possible for a 15 inch sub to go lower than an 18 inch sub and give more thump, for example compare a turbosound txd-218 with a turbosound tq-425.

 

Even so with a 4 way system in the pipeline a lms should also be used to give the rig it's full potential.

 

Agreed, unless hes already got an outboard rack.

 

Rich

But you already have a 4 way system, just with 3 channels of amps. Adding extra, different subs, especially in different locations and bodging them together with a random crossover is not a good way to get consistent low frequency response over the venue. If you do want different subs the best solution would be to totally replace the dual 15s and run the new subs in exactly the same passband, going a bit lower if possible. However you could well be barking up the wrong tree with this.

 

I would try fixing the problem at source first. Make sure you have the high pass filter engaged on any channels that don't need bass (most things that aren't bass guitar, kick drum/toms or keys). This should remove some stage rumble from your mix. Make sure your kick drum is well tuned with a quick decay, and if this fails try gating it to remove the unwanted resonance. Also, try a slow compressor on the bass guitar to let the initial transient of the bass guitar through but take the rest of the signal down a few dB, giving you a little more punch.

 

Getting a bit more technical, if you do have an lms to hand try running your subs off an aux/group. Use the lms to match the crossover for the bass/tops (the signal the sub sends to the bass) and feed the lms the main signal, with the subs getting the signal from the aux/group. This will remove more stage rumble from your bass/tops. This will be hard to get right.

[smalljoshua]

I would try fixing the problem at source first. Make sure you have the high pass filter engaged on any channels that don't need bass (most things that aren't bass guitar, kick drum/toms or keys). This should remove some stage rumble from your mix. Make sure your kick drum is well tuned with a quick decay, and if this fails try gating it to remove the unwanted resonance. Also, try a slow compressor on the bass guitar to let the initial transient of the bass guitar through but take the rest of the signal down a few dB, giving you a little more punch.

 

Agreed. It is an easy way of tightening up the bass if you have a comp/gate.

 

Josh

[Sirch Sound]

Again it depends on frequencey, just because there is more driver surface area it does not mean that it will be at the right frequencey to give the effect the OP requires, a 15" wont produce the very low end frequences that a 18"+ is able to.

 

It's not as simple as bigger driver size = more thud. It is perfectly possible for a 15 inch sub to go lower than an 18 inch sub and give more thump, for example compare a turbosound txd-218 with a turbosound tq-425.

 

 

 

Yes but your comparing totally different ranges there, the budget txd and the not so budget Tq series. A more accurate comparison would be something like the EAW SB150z and the SB180z, exactly the same range of speaker, just a different sized driver, and the 18" will go down to 29Hz compared to the 15's 34Hz

 

 

But you already have a 4 way system, just with 3 channels of amps. Adding extra, different subs, especially in different locations and bodging them together with a random crossover is not a good way to get consistent low frequency response over the venue. If you do want different subs the best solution would be to totally replace the dual 15s and run the new subs in exactly the same passband, going a bit lower if possible. However you could well be barking up the wrong tree with this.

 

Which is exactly what we are suggesting doing, I never reccomended running the dual 15's and 18's together.

 

 

Rich

[bassfreak]

Again it depends on frequencey, just because there is more driver surface area it does not mean that it will be at the right frequencey to give the effect the OP requires, a 15" wont produce the very low end frequences that a 18"+ is able to.

 

It's not as simple as bigger driver size = more thud. It is perfectly possible for a 15 inch sub to go lower than an 18 inch sub and give more thump, for example compare a turbosound txd-218 with a turbosound tq-425.

 

 

 

Yes but your comparing totally different ranges there, the budget txd and the not so budget Tq series. A more accurate comparison would be something like the EAW SB150z and the SB180z, exactly the same range of speaker, just a different sized driver, and the 18" will go down to 29Hz compared to the 15's 34Hz

 

 

But you already have a 4 way system, just with 3 channels of amps. Adding extra, different subs, especially in different locations and bodging them together with a random crossover is not a good way to get consistent low frequency response over the venue. If you do want different subs the best solution would be to totally replace the dual 15s and run the new subs in exactly the same passband, going a bit lower if possible. However you could well be barking up the wrong tree with this.

 

Which is exactly what we are suggesting doing, I never reccomended running the dual 15's and 18's together.

 

 

Rich

 

Cheers guys, I'm gonna hire in a guy who has a couple of TTs18's and see how they work replacing the dual 15" bins.