What should I be charging?

[Belerophon]

I have an upcoming problem. My next show is with a band I work regularly with. They usually play locally, but this time the gig is 120 miles away. Due to increasing amounts of gear, I will have to have a van (my large car can no longer seriously cope). At that distance I will want to have at least a one night stay at a B&B or cheap hotel. So my costs are going to go up significantly. There's no point me doing it if I make a loss. There's no point in asking for more money than the band can reasonably afford. Clearly I need to negotiate, but to do that I need a bottom line, and hence I see the need to break my time down into what the customer is paying for.

 

Just a quick idea, sorry if it is a bit noobish...

 

Anyway, regarding the distance could you charge extra for the further away the location is away from your house? Perhaps something like, more than 50miles add an extra £xx.xx added onto the bill, more than 100miles add extra £xx.xx added onto the bill, and so on. This could compensate the extra fuel needed and the accommodation over night; perhaps work out how far you are willing to go before you are not going to make it there and back within a day? Not sure if this is viable or would work but is just and idea there... :)

[Pete McCrea]

I have an upcoming problem. My next show is with a band I work regularly with. They usually play locally, but this time the gig is 120 miles away. Due to increasing amounts of gear, I will have to have a van (my large car can no longer seriously cope). At that distance I will want to have at least a one night stay at a B&B or cheap hotel. So my costs are going to go up significantly. There's no point me doing it if I make a loss. There's no point in asking for more money than the band can reasonably afford. Clearly I need to negotiate, but to do that I need a bottom line, and hence I see the need to break my time down into what the customer is paying for.

 

Your client needs to understand the cost involved in taking you to a gig 120 miles away. That will be the van and the fuel, as well as accommodation. Currently our van is costing about 27p a mile to drive (75 Litre tank, 360 Miles per tank = 4.8 Mile/Litre, £1.30 a litre 1.30/4.8 = 27p/Mile). So a round trip of 240 miles is going to cost £64 in diesel. Then the hire of the vehicle for you, and possibly the hotel, say £26 for a cheapey Travel Lodge booked in advance.

 

You need to add this to the cost of the work you usually do for them. Don't hide it, don't discount it, as these are costs you have to pay. Explain to them that if they want you to do the show with them, there will be an extra £130 on the bill, but that you aren't making any money on this.

 

Sell yourself short now, and you'll find it very hard to increase prices in the long run. If this is your business, and you have to make money, as there is no point making a loss. You also need to be prepared to say no. I've done it this morning- we can't guarantee the quality of the job we will do as we are committed in other areas, so turned the work down. Like wise I've walked away from work where people want it done on the cheap, because we won't do a good job for the price they want to pay, and I'm not prepared to risk the companies reputation just for another £200 in the bank.

 

I think you will find that most people will charge a flat rate for their time. Generally it will be by the day, and parts thereof. So if I commissioned an LD to design a show I'd expect to pay several days work before hand, and then a day rate for the show. I'd trust that they don't take the piss on it, and also expect to see things such as kit schedules and gell calls in a timely manner and appearance at any necessary meetings.

[w/robe]

I have an upcoming problem. My next show is with a band I work regularly with. They usually play locally, but this time the gig is 120 miles away.

 

In this specific case are the band hiring a van to transport their own stuff, if so can you get them to hire a larger one to also transport at least some of your gear (though check the insurance situation) and then they will see and understand how the money is being spent. Slightly more tricky but are they staying over night, if you trust them you could say you need them to book you accommodation.

 

You should not do this as a regular thing as it can be more difficult/stressful if you are relying on other people but it may help in this instance.

 

You will, of course, still be working for them the next day when you are traveling home so your costs have to also reflect this.

[SmokeAndMirrors]

In this specific case are the band hiring a van to transport their own stuff, if so can you get them to hire a larger one to also transport at least some of your gear (though check the insurance situation) and then they will see and understand how the money is being spent.

You will, of course, still be working for them the next day when you are traveling home so your costs have to also reflect this.

 

Last gig we shared a van; it did not work well. Their stuff arrives at the venue at the same time mine does, and we got in rather late (1pm with the show at 8pm). So what happens? They start setting up, too, they want to soundcheck, they complain my setup takes too long (it doesn't, it takes as long as it takes and I work solidly to get it done), they take power-points and place amps and cables and guitar stands without consulting me.... The only viable solution is for me to turn up before they do and get 90% set up so they can twazzer around to their hearts' contents. Hence, I want my own van.

 

Slightly more tricky but are they staying over night, if you trust them you could say you need them to book you accommodation.

 

Yet to be discussed. But yes, that's a possibility.

[Pete McCrea]

You could always hire the van, put their kit on first, then yours and take it to the venue. You arrive, load yours in, leaving theirs in the van for them to unload when they arrive.... Saves them the cost of the van, and requires only 1 hire.

[paulears]

The sound of walls and heads banging is starting to give me a headache.

 

The band will realise exactly how much distant gigs cost. Because they have the choice, bands have either driven through the night (very bad), stayed in awful accommodation (bad) or had a proper hotel and this means £50-70 per night for a room (good).

 

They sometimes rough it - their art, their choice - but they cannot expect you to do it too. I've had the offer of sleeping on the floor quite often, and just say no - I don't do floors, or unknown beds in damp hotels.

 

As for fees. If the customer wants a minute by minute breakdown, then I suspect they don't appreciate the total package value for money. Making a profit is not a crime - it's business.

 

My own charging system works like this. I have 3 prices for what I term short medium or long jobs. From time to time, when I need to show a discount, I'll do a long job for the medium price, or a medium job for a short price. If it is more than what I call comfy driving distance, then my quote includes miles at 42p/mile which is what running a van really costs (or at least did a few months ago). I ask for a hotel to Premier Inn standards including breakfast. The only people who say no tend to be those who were on too tight a budget anyway - so the risk of not getting paid was higher anyway.

 

 

If you want to charge by the minute - please carry on. You asked our advice, and we've all said we don't do it that way, so feel free to ignore us - but we all seem to be in agreement - it's just a bit unusual.

 

Last comment.

 

If you have got a van, you may well find the insurance specifically excludes carrying other peoples goods for reward - as in what couriers do. If this is the start of a proper business, it could be worth finding an accountant and running your system past him - in your first few years accountants can easily save you far more than they will charge you to do the accounts.

[Caldair]

My own charging system works like this. I have 3 prices for what I term short medium or long jobs. From time to time, when I need to show a discount, I'll do a long job for the medium price, or a medium job for a short price.

 

This sounds like what I've seen around here (Norway) as well.

Some people just run a flat fee for the day, some charge either for a half day or full day, some charge for up to ten hours, more for, oh, 10-16 hours, even more for over 16 hours and at some point you just have to realize that a new workday's started even though you never went home and you start at <10 hours again... There is one theatre near here that does pay techs by the hour, though.

I don't charge a per diem rate for longer gigs, though, like theatre productions, various tours, or hire companies that hire me for the entire festival season - it would be way more money than is reasonable for them to pay or me to charge. So I have per-week and per-month rates as well, both of which are negotiable depending on how fun the job sounds, what kind of budget they are on and how low I can afford to go at the time.

 

The whole thing really comes down to that the people hiring you are paying for absolutely everything. They pay for transportation. They pay for the equipment. They pay for your time because you're not doing something else to avoid starvation and living under a bridge. They pay for your education because they pay for your student loans. They pay for your insurance.

If a client isn't paying for all of that, then either the other clients are paying it for them because you charge them more, or you are paying for it yourself through a second job, debt until bankruptcy or bank robberies.

When they are paying for your time, they pay for the time you're there during the gig, before the gig (programming, rigging including load in), after the gig (getting all the stuff down and out and home again, and waiting for people to get out before you can start doing that), all your preparation before the gig, and the "unemployed" days when you're not working for anybody else. The reason is that you can't work for anyone else when you're doing something for them, and (for paying for your unemployed days) if you don't earn enough on the days you're working to survive the (hopefully not too many) days you aren't, then you have to get a different job and you won't be available for lighting jobs.

 

Also, a couple of minor points:

- They're paying for your skills, not just your time.

- A two hour gig is nowhere near twice as much work as a one hour gig.

[maeterlinck]

Wow, when I actually look at what the OP is making per hour it's a little scary.

 

For prep @ £0.50 / show minute taking 'several evenings' for a 1 hour show (lets say 4 at 3 hours an evening, so 12 hours). So £2.5/hour.

 

For oping @ £0.25 / show minute. So including setup, if you like to arrive before then band at 1pm so maybe 11am? Show at 8pm, 1 hour show, and 1 hour to strike. So 11 hour day. Earning £15 for the 1 hour show you're only making £1.36 / hour.

 

Prep £30

Show £15

Kit £168

Total £213

 

23 hours worked

 

So an average of £9.26 / hour. Lose the kit hire and you're down to a dismal £1.96 / hour - it's not even minimum wage!

 

I'd suggest you really need to think about what you want out of this, money, experience, fun? You're not going to make money and in the long term I could only see you losing money.

 

Personally I work out a price based on my costs to do the job and how long I reasonably expect it to take. I can then use this to work out a total figure which is the cost to the client. If the client wants a break down then I break down costs in to parts, prep, show etc. But I try to keep avoid explaining the sum parts of costs. It's not necessary and not part of negotiation. You don't know what part of the 26p for your baked beans goes on the contents and you probably wouldn't want to.

[lightsource]

The sound of walls and heads banging is starting to give me a headache.

 

Well said!

 

Any charging structure needs to be based around circumstances.

 

Let's just look at MY van for this year.

 

MOT/ repairs £300

Road tax £200

Insurance £400

Depreciation £700

 

That gives a yearly cost of £1600, now divide that by 52 (weeks) The van is costing me the best part of £31 per week before I even put fuel into it. Or my time to drive it......Or any unexpected repairs!

 

Now add the fuel.....

 

Now add the time to drive the van...... In some areas it may take you a couple of hours to drive the 120 miles the OP stated, in others, it may take you 4 hours to make the same journey.

 

If you own the van, then all these costs have to be factored into you're 'per mile charge' We do so many miles for free ( depends on the gig) but then we charge a minimum of 50p per mile after that.

 

You really need to forget about who you're working with.

 

Get the figures on you're vehicle cost and create a sensible milage charge.

Get the hire charge correct for the gear you're using

Factor in you're time (including all prep work)

Add the accomodation costs etc...

 

Then give them the price quote..

 

Once they've screamed "HOW MUCH", then decide from a personal point of view, weather you want to take the job on or not.

 

If you want more details on our pricing structure, then send me a PM.

[The Boogie Man]

Looking at a slightly more general picture, whatever "business" your in works exactly the same way. You have expences that you add up: your direct business related expences, your own living expences and then your profit margin. This is not an hourly or even weeky figure, it's a yearly figure.

This figure is your bottom line. Dont make this amount and at best you stagnate at worst you go under.

How you devide this number up is up to you.

Per job, per week, month, etc. You then adapt your figure to your envioment. eg: If your base figure is 12,000 a year thats 1,000 per month you need to make to keep going.

If there are a lot of other companys doing what you do in the same area and they all charge 120 per job, then you have to charge 100 to get the work and then do 10 jobs per month.

There are hundreds of permiations on the equation, that sometimes have to include "going rates", "set union rates" etc, but the bottom line is you have to make the bottom line.

 

On topic, There's nothing wrong with working out your costs per minute, but I think you'll have a small heart attack if you do.

 

Whatever way you devide your figures up it is always just for you. For a customer there is only a price. They take or leave it. If they take it you do the work. If they like you you do it again.

Just my 2p

[lightsource]

Just my 2p

 

 

It is a fine line though, as a hire company, I'm very much aware of the 'do a job for £100 tonight' or stay at home and earn nothing.

 

It's very easy for you say XXX is my fee, but if the alternative is that you're too expensive for this gig, no income, where you could have at least earned something, then who's to say what's right or wrong.

 

And that's why I said it's a fine line. I think we all have different thoughts on this subject <_<

[leofric]

The old freelance adage is that I can't be in two places at the same time therefore you pay for a full day regardless of how big or small the show is. This also reflects the fact that for many of us a job usually ties us up all day with one thing and another.Many of us start with the getting out of bed rate, ie "I wouldn't get out of bed for less than £xxx"

 

OK over and above that freelancers do make a commercial decision on whether to do a particular job or not. It depends on the market rate for the job in question is and how much they think the client will pay. Then there are the 'X' factors such as is the client a good payer, do they treat you well, how interested in the job are you, how much hassle is involved.

 

I can see where you are coming from but I think you are trying to fine tune it a bit to much and I think that it will hold you back, if you want to expand this work into your main source of employment. It is more important to know what your cost base is so you can quote for your gear etc that to quantify how many minutes you spend on the show the client can either afford a rate for the show or not.

 

Most of us are not often in a position where we can do fifty minutes in one venue and then move with the gear to another venue on the other side of town to do another hour and a half. This is why many of us who tour shows charge for 'days off' although we may not be working that day we don't get to choose where we spend that day and are expected to rest and not to work for anyone else hence the client pays.

 

I had better leave it there as I can hear another can of worms opening and I don't want to hijack your debate

 

Cheers

 

Leo

[Jivemaster]

There are three formulae for pricing!

 

What others charge

What it costs plus a bit

What you think you can charge

 

NO one of them is right in all situations. You must know the costs, you must stay competitive, you must make a profit.

 

Always remember that even a short performance occupies you for large parts of the day, so prevents you doing another gig that night

[RustyBrooks]

I've got to say, I'm with the majority here, can see no real reason for such a tiny breakdown. I charge a set fee per day, regardless of job/client.

 

They get me exclusivly for the day, be it one our, or 24, for my rate, no negotiations, no haggling, not interested. Only time haggling comes in to play, is if there is a know bad job, and I want extra to make it worth my while putting up with the job.

 

I expect my clients to pay for ALL expenses as soon as I lock my front door, including feeding me, putting me up in hotels (I do not share rooms) and repaying ANY expenses incurred through work, my rate for useing my own car is 40p a mile, the maximum that I can realistically charge, and this is to try and put clients off expecting me to drive myself anywhere, when a runner/taxi's would be preferable to me.

 

I think my charging by the minute, and having an unrealistic charging stucture for your bare neccesities, travel and gear, wi;; backfire if the band get more profitable, as, even though they have been using you for a long time, when they make it, they may feel a more proffesionally charged service would be more suitable to their needs.

[mac.calder]

As others have said "Day rate" is pretty standard. Ie my day rate was usually between AU$300 and AU$400 (depending on how much I like the client, the type of work etc), and is for 12 hours work. Anything under 4 hours I charge "Half Day". Anything over 12 hours is by negotiation.

 

The formula for calculating travel charges has been expressed by others - however one word of advice, when figuring out your day rate, make sure you budget part of the travel expenses into your price - ie I may budget $50 of my day rate for car/van maintenance and the first xKM. Then anything over that I will charge at $x per KM. Also remember that for long journeys, you are loosing a day - so if it takes a full day to drive there you need to either inflate your travel costs to make sure you are paid for the travel, or you need to charge a "travel day" to the client.