Technical Riders

[Ken Coker]

In a fit of senility bought on by the approach of my 50th birthday, I thought I might try and book Wilco Johnson* for my birthday party. I emailed the drummer (!) and got the reply " The fee is £XXXX and the rider is some water and tea if you can manage it " Sadly the fee was a bit more than I can afford, but decent guys with a sense of perspective.

 

KC

 

 

 

*(Younger members: ask your Dad).

My band's rider can be found here

[MarkPAman]

" The fee is £XXXX and the rider is some water and tea if you can manage it "

 

I have known Wilco's fee to be reduced by the words "We'll take you for an Italian after the sound check". It also makes the sound check very quick!

[chris4monitors]

Technical riders.........

We update our sound spec about every 4 months depending on the line up the band are playing with at any time.

However we find the problem is getting the booking agent to send it out at the time of booking the show with the promoters. Many times we arrive at venues to be told that the tech rider has been sent back to the agent and that xxxxxx item had been crossed off by them and that the agent had aggreed to it, and not let us know. This sort of thing gets a touring crew realy angry as we do our bit, but the "buisiness" people dont do theirs !! Makes for a problematic show ie. getting the correct desk/mics/monitors etc at the last min. Has to be said that USA is the worst offender especialy in the club gigs.

Our production manager is one of those who puts wierd things onto the rider like "a small cactus" in the dressing room so when the venue ask what is that all about he knows they have at least looked at it !

[stillgoingstrong]

From a hire company's point of view

 

I, for one, am a sceptic when when I get asked to quote for an event and handed a technical riders. When I was first starting out a few years ago I had just invested in my processing rack full of nice new shiny behringer graphics/comps/gates etc. I then landed my first gig where the band not only knew what a rider was, but had one of their own. Imagine my dismay when it stated 'NO Behringer'. I spent half my profit on the job sub-hiring in DBX and Yamaha processing only to find out when I got there that the engineer didn't really mind what he used as long as it worked, especially as it was only for a 400 capacity venue.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand that it's nice to know what you're going to face when you arrive, but it's when they phrase it as if it 'has to be this' and it 'has to be that' that you're never sure what level you need to pitch your spec. You can either quote with the kit you have (usually 60% of 'specified kit') and state your alternatives and risk loosing the job when the client receives another quote where someonehas matched the rider perfectly) or you quote everything on the list, loosing money where you're having to sub in kit to match their request when you know kit you already own would do the same job.

 

Ever since then I've always taken riders with a big pinch of salt. Even to the point where I've since sat down with a touring engineer and developed our own template so that it states what they would prefer, what they insist on and which bits they are flexible on.

 

My favourite rider received has to go to a band from the states which asks for 5 monitor mixes plus stage fills if available from 20 inputs and their preferred desks are XL3/XL4 or Soundcraft SM16 or SM20.

This followed their FOH request for a Minimum 40 channel desk, Preferably Midas Heratige, XL4, Soundcraft Vi6/ series 5, Yamaha PM5D or PM4000 when their channel list shows 21 mic inputs + 3 FX (2 Stereo, 1 Mono)

I submitted an 'I can provide this instead as it seems more reasonable' type quote but never heard a thing. Having spoken to the engineer a couple of months later on another event they ended using a 24 channel Yamaha MG series mixer and shared monitor mixes. It turned out the Tour manager used to be a technician and wrote the rider for the band without the band ever having a look at it. And their engineer changed so often they never had a chance to get it re-written sensibly.

 

[Rant over]

 

Tech riders can be amazingly helpful, especially stage plots, but please make them reasonable and, where possible, state where you are willing to be flexible as the hire firm can get money back on the kit they've invested money in, meaning the client saves money by not paying higher fees for all the sub'd in kit and once the engineer has seen the comparitive 2 or 3 quotes he can choose the one he likes the look of and the engineer will be happy As for the band, as long as they are lit and loud then they're happy :)

[J Pearce]

... FOH request for a Minimum 40 channel desk, Preferably Midas Heratige, XL4, Soundcraft Vi6/ series 5, Yamaha PM5D or PM4000 when their channel list shows 21 mic inputs + 3 FX (2 Stereo, 1 Mono)...

 

On discussion with a few touring engineers the FOH channels are often overspecced so as to allow some channels for the support bands, as often promoters will only fulfill the tech spec of the headline on the basis that it will cover the support acts. Not all promoters are tech savvy enough to understand why it is desirable to have dedicated channels.

[lightsource]

From a hire company's point of view

 

I, for one, am a sceptic when when I get asked to quote for an event and handed a technical riders.

........

Ever since then I've always taken riders with a big pinch of salt.

 

Totally agree... I always treat riders more as a wish list, then have a chat with the engineer in advance.

 

Never had any problems....with one exception, and no advanced warning

 

Popular touring band requiring 21 channels FOH so we supplied a 32 ch desk...., Engineer spent 2 hours doing the soundcheck, giving us 30 mins to get the support act on stage and do theirs before the doors opened.

 

However, what the rider / engineer never mentioned, was that their 21 channels were for their use only, leaving us with 11 for the support band! There was also no kit sharing, so 2 drum kits, bass amps etc on the stage.

 

Got it sorted in the end.....but it was a very frantic 30 mins :)

[charlyfarly]

However, what the rider / engineer never mentioned, was that their 21 channels were for their use only, leaving us with 11 for the support band!

How mean! Didn't the engineer let you use the hi-hat and overhead channels! B-) ;)

 

Seriously though. I don't call my rider a "wish list", it shows my intent on the quality and standard of equipment expected so that the guys can give a great show to people who have made the effort to buy a ticket.

Always contact your PA provider and either talk through it with them and/or get them to send a pdf with their proposed gear and them carry on from there. This can be enormously helpful to the supplier if he has to deal with a promoter who wants to get a little too heavy on the "pruning" side of the things. ;) The supplier is able to respond with things like, "Actually, having spoken to the bands' engineer it is very important for them to have infill speakers" or "No we need a larger desk/s because once they have soundchecked they don't want their monitor channels fiddled with"*, etc.etc

 

* I've lost count trying to explain to promoters about this! How would they like to go on stage as a headliner (especially) and have a cobbled-back-together stage mix whilst the support band enjoyed a pristine start from scratch?

[lightsource]

How mean! Didn't the engineer let you use the hi-hat and overhead channels! B-) ;)

 

To be honest, I don't know what was worse, the missing channels, or the half an hour running around like a headless chicken ;)

 

In the end, that's pretty much what I did. We stole some channels from the kit, and re-routed the multiore (forgot to mention the multicore only had 24 sends)....

 

I think the (hindsight) point is though, is that if the (comprehensive) rider had even made a slight mention of the situation, I could have taken my second 20 channel desk to the gig, which would have made life a lot easier.

 

That's why I always like to talk to the engineer, pre-gig. Expecially to discuss the things that aren't mentioned on the rider.

[niclights]

In my experience it is considered normal to not share except for hats/overhead. I would always assume this was the case although it does obviously depend on the typical requirements for size of venue.

[Peter F]

From a monitor engineer's point of view.

 

It is not a wish list. It is what I need to do my job!

 

I list 28 channels because one or more members of the band wants to hear one or more of those channels on stage. It is as simple as that. It makes no difference if your venue holds 500 people or 5000, the turn on stage will still want to hear the same things on stage.

 

I put a picture of a wedge next to the keyboard player on the very clear stageplot I sent you because the keyboard player will require a wedge with his own mix next to him. The fact that you have chosen to ignore my pretty picture will not make him change his mind.

 

I appreciate there are some over the top specs floating around, I've been a house engineer, I've seen them. They can almost always be sorted with a phone call (unless it's an American engineer, probably best to make it 2 phone calls).

The problem seems to be that a culture has developed where technical riders are almost completely ignored.

 

And it's not the strange, teeny, tiny, middle of nowhere shows that are the problem. Invariably they are the promoters or PA companies that take the time to pay attention to the requirements and contact me or the TM with any problems. "Yes, I can lose the sidefills if it is not physically possible to fit any on the stage, thanks for making the effort to let me know"

 

No, it is the larger, install venues up and down this country who seems completely incapable of reading specs. If management were failing to pass them on I would have some sympathy but this isn't the case. I walk in, the paperwork is already there for all to see, so why do I get that shrug of disbelief when I ask for the other 4 missing wedges? Aargh, stop me now before I drift into another topic entitled "Are quite a few Academy staff bored/disinterested/unhappy with their jobs/worked so hard by management that they are permanently knackered?"

 

Cheers,

Peter

[lightsource]

And that, Peter F, is where we're gaining a lot of new business....I seem to have said this in a zillion posts recently.....communication is the key.

 

A rider is a rider, but when all parties know what is required, know what is available, then things can be sorted and agreements can be reached. So everyone is well informed prior to the event.

 

Without communication there's the potential for a lot of angry people, and the potential of a serious additional workload for those involved.