thomann flamejets safety

[avdavesound]

hi, browsing through thomann I came across this . didn't think it was safe to use an effect like this with the DMX protocol?

or is it?

[scjb]

To be blunt, it isn't! But it is incredibly cheap to implement. And I presume this unit is manufactured in China...

[Ike]

DMX can't be used in safety critical situations however if it's only armed (by some other means) when it would be safe to fire DMX is perfectly acceptable. DMX is a lot more expensive to implement than a simple push to make switch on a bit of bell wire and was presumably chosen for it's practicality, not cost. The item linked to is manufactured in the EU or at least the prototypes I saw were.

[scjb]

DMX is a lot more expensive to implement than a simple push to make switch on a bit of bell wire and was presumably chosen for it's practicality, not cost.

 

But a lot cheaper than doing it properly, and the manufacturer is able to sell to a wider range of customers than if an appropriate control system was in place.

[Ike]

If I was going to use that kind of device it's likely I'd want to run it from a lighting desk and have a local dead mans handle to ensure safety. If this was the case DMX is the only appropriate protocol.

 

It should also probably be pointed out that just about every manufacturer making similar products (ranging from the thousand pound mark to many tens of thousands) implement DMX in some way.

[scjb]

Firstly, there are some people who don't believe that this sort of system integration is appropriate in an onstage environment when applied to safety-critical effects. Yes, I am aware that one of the major systems in use today also only runs DMX. I'm still amazed everytime I see it that they get away with it. My personal opinion is that safety-critical devices should have their own control systems that may or may not have some form of integration with other systems via whatever protocol is the flavour of the day. Yes, a bloke at the side of stage with a plug and socket he can disconnect could be deemed a "control system". I believe that as soon as that happens, then the cheaper production companies out there will consider it unnecessary to have a dedicated effects tech, and then the "control system" job will get farmed out to whoever hasn't got a showcall for the particular song. I've seen it happen with pyro, it will probably happen with gas. Personal job retention? Possibly... Sometimes I think Germany has the right idea WRT operators licensing.

 

Secondly, there are people on forums such as this who don't know how to wire a plug, let alone have the experience to safely integrate live-flame effects into a variable stage environment. IMHO an off-the-shelf "my first endanger your audience flame kit" for the masses is a step in the wrong direction. At £1k per device, I can't wait for the first wedding dj with money in the bank to have a pop at making his next marquee show a bit more spectacular... Too stupid to happen? I wouldn't put money on it.

 

EDIT: Poor grammar

[Jivemaster]

Pyro and fireworks is currently it's own worst enemy in this respect! The spec for DMX clearly states that it is not for things that may risk injury. It was designed for control of dimmers -nothing else! There was nothing else then! The consoles and the luminaires have made huge advances, DMX has become the defacto standard for all control. Pyro and fireworks and SFX have all clung onto bell wire and also developed their own diverse protocols BUT nothing is compatible. NO-ONE is going to make a flame device that is compatible with Fire-one, firebywire, .....etc. and all the other protocols then sell one of each. Even the Le Maitre flame machines at PLASAshow 2007 were DMX controlled. The worrying thing is that Thomman is the reference source for kiddie djs and soon ( weeks? ) these Euro made machines will be replaced by the Acme et al branded Chinese stuff at the price of a moderate far eastern smoke machine. with a press to incinerate button. Scarily these will never come under the Pyro directive. -What happens when someone "invents" a DIY fuel, uses an alternative canister or dilutes the proper fuel with.... :) The ONLY answer to DMX usage is a similarly universal and approved protocol for pyro, With all the system checking and full duplex connections and handshaking, and then the immediate discarding of ALL incompatable kit -- never going to happen is it?"

 

 

"All systems are assembled with the help of the same top technologies and provide the maximum that can be required from the system for an unbeatable price. Each of the systems is built on different philosophy and they cannot be fully interconnected. However, it is possible to combine them independently." -Clipped from merlinfire's website to show that their kit is several systems - hardly an adoptable standard like DMX!

[avdavesound]

I suppose the DMX protocol is OK for it if you use a separate DMX desk and be responsible, But thats never going to happen. What scares me that a punk teenager could easily purchase this item!

[scjb]

I suppose the DMX protocol is OK for it if you use a separate DMX desk and be responsible

 

Problem is, the issue isn't just with operator experience. DMX is not a robust enough protocol that you can't guarantee you will never have a glitch on the data line that takes a random dimmer (or flame unit) high. We've all been around DMX systems that behave strangely. DMX flicker finders are there for a reason!

[Wuddy]

Despite the fact that DMX is not a suitable protocol for controling hazardous applications have you noted the safety distances, 3Mtr sideways which is effectively a 6Mtr Dia. circle and 6 - 8 Mtr height, you're going to need a seriously big venue to use ONE safely.

[Ynot]

I have to say here that we hired in two flame effects for a couple of consecutive shows back in September. These units were from BSTE, - the Fire Ant. To be honest, the effects were on the whole essentially too big for our venue BUT the inbuilt height restriction valves made them safe (!) for our purposes. (The smaller Dragon Hiccup wasn't available).

 

That said, they came with manual control - which included a dead-man's switch. But they also had a DMX input, and I gather this would only be 'live' to accept DMX signals if the manual DMH was closed. We thought about using DMX for about 5 seconds. Then decided 100% against it, partly because trusting DMX for firing ANY pyro scares the sh1t out of me, but mainly because we DO have a noise problem on our DMX distro, which causes occasional LED par flicker and random mirror movement on our Goldies.

 

At the end of the day, as has already been said several times, because there's no regulation on who can buy or operate ANY pyro effect in this country (one area the US is ahead of us in some states) there's nothing at all to stop any numpty from buying and using these fire projectors. Just like the d1ckheads who bought 20 ft gerbs for our 16 ft grid venue a couple of years back. They had a VERY rude awakening when I demonstrated one of their purchases outside the theatre, then confiscated the box!!

[karl]

Hands up anybody who has op'ed a lighting desk and never accidentally leaned something on a flash button or double tapped the GO button. Normally the consequences of such a slip are pretty minor but imagine the potential with one or more of these attached!

 

I suppose it depends on how exactly it operates. If it's something like < 128 on the channel is off and > 128 is on then this could be a real problem. If you had to send a series of ,say three or four, specific values on the controlling DMX channel before the device activates that would be a lot safer. E.g. if you had to set the channel to say 1, 155, 16, 27 in that order in less than two seconds to activate the effect and then any value other than 27 immediately deactivates it.

[Roderick]

I would suggest that the strongest argument against using DMX for any sort of pyro effect is not so much the technical aspect or the quality of DMX. By using DMX for this application, the responsibilty all of a sudden is with the board op who will usually be at the back of the auditorium. That is not a position to judge if the area around and above is clear enough for the effect. And the board op may have a few other things on his mind too, again not an acceptable way to operate pyro effects. Pyro operators must have a clear line of sight of the effect and the areas around it and be fully concentrated on just that job!

 

In Australia all pyro technical effects are very strictly regulated, you can't even buy LeMaitre without an appropriate license. And each state has it own licensing system which makes touring with pyro's always a lot of fun!

[Jivemaster]

Auto replay units playing the show to time cues is a positively horrific concept when combined with pyro!

 

However DMX it will be unless al the pyro suppliers can agree quietly and immediatelyto an open protocol for pyro control.

 

A DMX controlles and universe dedicated to fireworks seems a reasonable extension of the use of the protocol. But stage pyro controlled from the Lx board scares me and probably scares the Lx staff too.

[Ynot]

However DMX it will be unless al the pyro suppliers can agree quietly and immediatelyto an open protocol for pyro control.

Actually, I'm not sure I agree.

To be honest, pyro controller software/hardware can (as far as I am concerned) be as variable as the different manufacturers want to make it. AS LONG AS all of them maintain a strict adherence to the one over-riding factor - and that of course is safety.

At the end of the day, THEATRE pyro in most applications is and should be independent of any other automated system. There are times when it is going to be desirable to link pyro closely to music, and I believe that a lot of pukka controllers will take a midi signal input as an external trigger. Others have an integral software based music track as part of the software (I think Mark LeMaitre's display at the last PLASA I got to was such a beast). But I believe that any such system should be inherently stand-alone, and a quality DMH option to prevent misfires when linked to any external source.