Vertical Cat Ladders

[IRW]

Hello chaps & chapesses, Just a quick moan/debate sparking issue that I thought may interest people...

 

Most people will be familiar with the fixed vertical ladders you often encounter in theatres, often installed to provide a speedy/handy way up/down from the flies. We have one such ladder in our theatre, however are now no-longer allowed to use it since the health and safety chaps from the council (it's a council-owned venue in the UK) came round a week or so ago. The only time we would be allowed to use it would be in an emergency :D

 

The only other way up to the flies is via a staircase which admittedly is safer, however I personally find that it is more fatiguing to run up and down between 3 floors than zip up a cat-ladder which is only about 6 or 7 meters tall.

 

To get up via the stairwell you have to leave the stage, go down one flight of stairs, then up two floors, along a corridor, up a 5/6 step metal access stair (with handrails) to the electrics floor, then round the back to the flys- a good 1.5/2 minute jog. ;)

 

To get up via the ladder you have to exit through an upstage door, zip up the ladder, and side-step through a door that opens outwards with very little effort, onto the flyfloor- a 15-30 second climb depending on how leisurely you climb! (And before anyone asks, the ladder does have the 'hoops' on it)

Now I understand that this sort of thing would vary from place to place, depending on your RA's, however I was just wondering if many other people had come upon this sort of situation before, and if you have, did you manage to sort it out , or come to some sort of compromise? (For example only using the ladder during fit-ups when speedy access to the flys may be required) :)

[paulears]

yep - you hear this one all the time. Usually some kind of edict by an inexperienced person. We had the same, about 3 years ago, and we're offered the 'get-out' of footing the ladder! Misunderstanding of legislation is common. However, the availability of an alternative access route does, in my view weaken your case. Your risk assessment would presumably show that you consider the ladder access route - as your primary method of getting up there - the safest. If you can justify this, then the problem goes away. If you can't you've admitted the stairs are the safest route.

 

Next question is about the "H&S chaps" - were these council employees, or external consultants? Much will depend on their status. Are they all powerful? What dispute procedures are in place? Then you can make your case. Some consultants employed on contract are there to provide evidence that proper, independent risk assessment has taken place. It doesn't show that the assessor is competent, just independent. The "fire safety inspector" we had recently was a bumbling old fool who had offered his services. He cheerfully admitted he knew nothing about theatres but was pretty hot on factories. As such, he missed virtually every unique theatre type safety feature, completely missed that we still have hose reels all over the place that are not connected to mains water any longer, had no idea what the release lever connected to a cable heading upwards to the vents in the grid roof was for!

 

It's quite possible your inspector is correct, but equally, you could be too - so it's up to you to show a good reason for using the ladder. Our doors into the roof space now have 'break glass to enter' padlocks to prevent unwanted people getting to the follow spot box. It was soon obvious that a greater risk was that a follow spot op could be locked into the roof space, with no escape route, if only one of the doors was unlocked and a fire was to start on that exit route. The result is that the doors have never been re-locked - one risk outweighing the other.

 

When people state something is illegal, or banned - ask for the relevant bit of legislation.

[IRW]

Thanks Paulears, I'm not in work again until tomorrow so I'll try and find out the answers to some of your questions then!- It was the Tech Manager who took them round so I'll try and get more information from him tomorrow!

[Al Cain]

Ian, wouldn't it be worth getting an answer from the god of health and safety that is Mike Brown? since LIPA had 2 Cat ladders that I can rember, he might offer some advice...

 

 

HTH

 

Alex

[kerry davies]

Think Paul is, yet again, right. The regs are the workplace health safety and welfare thingy where fixed ladders less than 15 degrees to the vertical need hoops "where possible" from 2.5 metres spaced at 900mm minimum "or suitable fall arrest equipment".

There is a clause stating that these are only to be fitted where a staircase cannot, so they may say, "use the stairs" but you have a right to challenge someone over that statement. Maybe you could refer them to http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/ which is becoming one of my favourite sites.

If anyone meets up with someone "banning" some equipment or practice can they please find out who they are, who they represent and who is paying them. There appears to be a lot of apocrypha or rumour about HSE doing the rounds that reality is getting a little cloudy. Many people have decried the HSE and then gone on to use "elf'n'safety" as an excuse for stirring up trouble or, even, avoiding work!!

How can I be so cynical?

[Shez]

When I was doing some training a few weeks ago, the trainer mentioned in passing about a west end venue (I don't recall which one) where someone had had an accident recently on such a ladder (with hoops) and they had to then install a fall arrest system too. It's always struck me as a little odd the disparity that exists here as there'll be dozens of other similar venues around the country who aren't required to take such action. It seems to be the case that some remedial action is always required after (even a freak) accident, even if the precautions already in place can be deemed sufficient.

[Wuddy]

There appears to be a lot of apocrypha or rumour about HSE doing the rounds that reality is getting a little cloudy.

 

A little OT here but in context to the above, I believe that HM HSE have recently sponsored the World Conker Championships and not a hard hat, pair of goggles or gloves to be found anywhere, they said they had never implemented rules requiring such protection and that a lot of so-called H&S requirements were probably insurance Co. lead, adding that they had sponsored the event to show they are not and never have been kill-joys

 

EDIT: just checked, sponsers were actually the Institution of Occupational Safety & Health (IOSH) not HSE

[JimWebber]

A little OT here but in context to the above, I believe that HM HSE have recently sponsored the World Conker Championships and not a hard hat, pair of goggles or gloves to be found anywhere, they said they had never implemented rules requiring such protection and that a lot of so-called H&S requirements were probably insurance Co. lead, adding that they had sponsored the event to show they are not and never have been kill-joys

 

EDIT: just checked, sponsers were actually the Institution of Occupational Safety & Health (IOSH) not HSE

 

I think Sir, that you have taken the nail, and hit said nail squarely on the head (Whilst using all neccessary PPE of course)

 

Many organisations (and individuals) are terrified of today's compensation culture, and as such try to eliminate all possible chances of litigation. In true human nature they try to pass the blame onto the "Health & Safety N*zis" - Many of these policies along the lines of "Nobody is allowed to do .... (Insert Activity Here) ... until they have passed the "Safe use of ... course" Have absolutely nothing to do with ensuring a safer systems of work, and even less to do with reducing accidents. These certificates are far too frequently merely a chance for the employer to say "We told young Herbert here not to hit his thumb with a hammer, therefore it is his fault, not ours"

 

One of my pet hates is the word "Illegal"

 

Stepladders are NOT illegal.

Unguarded Platforms are NOT illegal.

Un-tested electrics are NOT illegal.

 

I could go on.

 

The only Legal requirement is to carry out everything in a safe manner (??And even then Whenever practical??)

 

It strikes me that the HSE legislation itself is not specific enough - It allows for too much subjectivity on the part of employers, employees, inspectors, jurors, whoever! - Although, I cannot see how you could specify for every occasion - it would be far too impractical!

 

I cannot help but feel that the whole approach to H&S should be met with far more common sense, and far fewer "Injuries 4 U lawyers direct.com" types...

 

I apologise for the rant, and obviously I cannot comment about the original case (The ladder), however I do suspect that your being banned from using it depends far more on "Litigation Mitigation" then anybody getting hurt...

 

Jim

 

--Edit Added Question marks to "Reasonably Practical" comment

[Kaboom25]

Your H&S inspector dude may have had an issue with the fact that a fall can still occur from the ladder even though the hoops are there.

 

An obvious solution is Latchway systems vertical fall arrest products. Nice systems when commissioned properly - if the steel cable is slack though its a pain the rear!

 

they use them a lot in wind turbines and other really-long-ladder applications - indeed I was on a wind farm the other day where their turbines have a 70m continuous ladder (with platforms at 20m intervals) with no hoops - just the latchway cable. not for the faint hearted

 

can send you a pic of what the systems look like if you want.

 

just my 2p worth.

[paulears]

I think the idea of having to put on a harness, then clipping on nice animation here and climbing a short CAT style ladder, then taking the harness off again is a system that would simply be ignored. Let's be honest, we all use these ladders in ways the manufacturers didn't predict. Follow spot ops with one arm full of food and drink, or a bunch of cables. Our one has a steel vertical strip running up between the hoops, so you can lean back onto it and support yourself with that so that your one climbing arm can be removed from one rung and moved to another, in perfect safety.

 

Far more likely to get caught up on the coat hangers and costumes hung on th bottom hoop by the twirlies.

[dbuckley]

I'm the lightist that doesn't do heights, but, a venue I use a lot has vertical ladders with hoops to the fly floors, and there are three vertical strips of metal betwixt the hoops, and Mr Terrified of Falling here can ascend the ladder to just below the fly floor where the sockets live, and happily work with two hands whilst leaning back against the hoopy stuff. In my opinion, hoops like that pretty much rock.

[Seano]

An obvious solution is Latchway systems vertical fall arrest products.

Obvious perhaps, but not likely to be the best value for money. (Quite apart from the issues already mentioned, of expecting people to don a harness to ascend/descend a short ladder and then take it off again.) Latchway is pretty over specced (and consequently over priced) for the relatively benign environment of a theatre stage.

 

Sean

x

[smalljoshua]

An obvious solution is Latchway systems vertical fall arrest products.

Obvious perhaps, but not likely to be the best value for money. (Quite apart from the issues already mentioned, of expecting people to don a harness to ascend/descend a short ladder and then take it off again.) Latchway is pretty over specced (and consequently over priced) for the relatively benign environment of a theatre stage.

 

Sean

x

Not the best value for money but A local theatre I have been to has had to have one installed because the two large doors at the back of the stage that we use to load scenery and props and the actual stage are 2m above ground level.

 

It never gets used though apart from when we have a heavy piece of scenery we attach it to the fall arrester and push is off the edge

[Seano]

Not the best value for money but A local theatre I have been to has had to have one installed...

A fall arrest system, or a Latchway fall arrest system?

 

It never gets used though apart from when we have a heavy piece of scenery we attach it to the fall arrester and push is off the edge

Well thats just dumb. Someone is going to get hurt. (And someone deserves to get hurt, sadly the two rarely coincide.)

 

If you choose not to use a fall arrest system, that's one thing - personally I'm a 'freedom of choice' kind of a guy and have no beef with that. (Not, obviously, an attitude that the venue management can afford to adopt.)

 

Trashing the fall arrest system so that nobody can use it, on the other hand, is inexcusable.

[Brian]

Trashing the fall arrest system so that nobody can use it, on the other hand, is inexcusable.

And illegal.