richard Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Hi there We are just about to start the process of staff recruitment for our venues at this years Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Staff would be required to start in Mid July and work through until the end of August. We supply accomodation and offer a (small) fee to staff to cover living expenses and the like. This job would especially suit students and those considering a move into professional theatre. We are looking for the following staff: TechniciansTechnical ManagersTheatre ManagersFront of HouseBox Office Managers and StaffClient Services/Administration If you are interested in any of these positions then please visit C Venues staffing Information or email staffing@cvenues.com, or ask any questions you may have here! Thanks Richard Richard WilliamsonProduction ManagerC Venues www.cvenues.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robloxley Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Surely you are obliged to pay your staff at least the National Minimum Wage (£3.60 or £4.20 /hr as appropriate)? I think you'd have a very hard time claiming and proving your staff are self-employed or true volunteers (especially as you are paying benefits of accomodation and subsistence) or come under any other exempt category. Given the hours that people I know have done working at the Fringe, that's going to be a lot of pay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryson Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Does it not depend on how much the accomodation you offer is worth? A bit of a subjective one, that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 Sadly if we paid £3-60 ph we would go bankrupt very quickly, especially as the acommodation in Edinburgh around that time is so much. It is a slightly strange issue I would agree, but as I said above, most people do Edinburgh for the experience, not the money, and it really is a great place for people new to the industry to learn new skills and meet people. Many of our past staff have gained a lot of (well paid) work from the festival, and used it to further there career as a whole. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Sadly if we paid £3-60 ph we would go bankrupt very quickly, especially as the acommodation in Edinburgh around that time is so much.As a chap who did the Ed Fest, just after college, it can be a truely great experience. Of course it can also be a 18 hour a day job and only seeing often "basic" digs from inside one's eyelids. The only thing I got out of EdFest was a 20 year habit of smoking....... yup you guessed it.. I started at the fesitival!!! ;) I know no one however who has gained anything from doing the season concerning future employment. Most of the up and coming directors one works with will often quickly forget about who worked theif socks off for subs and bed for a month and no pay. I wish you well finding people - and I am certain floods of wannabe theatre people will flock to you asking to be part of the exepience which is Edinburgh at Festival Time. Just a point however:-1- Would you pay the same as you pay in renting a room for someone as wages if they found their own digs? -2- Do you pay travel for people to get there?-3- Would you be willing for people to view last years accounts to prove wages are il-affordable? Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 I know of at least 6 of our staff from last year who have gained good work from last years festival alone, so it does happen!! ;) -1- Would you pay the same as you pay in renting a room for someone as wages if they found their own digs? We have a policy of not doing this since there are cery few who do, and we don't save much if any if we just lose one or two people to accomodate (as we get large flats which sleep many) -2- Do you pay travel for people to get there? This is included in the expenses -3- Would you be willing for people to view last years accounts to prove wages are il-affordable? Can't really do that in detail as they contain confidential information, we can give a breakdown of sosts versus income to show why we cannot pay very much Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robloxley Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I'm afraid you are obliged to pay your staff at least the minimum wage and you have absolutely no choice on this. Yes, lots of people will go and do Edinburgh for free, but they would be within their rights to take the matter further in pursuance of a decent wage. The minimum wage was brought in to prevent employers exploiting their employees by paying a pittance. Under National Minumum Wage rules, employers can only offset quite a small amount of pay to cover accomodation (£22.75/week I believe). If an employer can't afford to pay their staff the minimum wage, then they can't afford to employ them. That's their problem, not their staff's. In that case, the employer's financial model needs alteration to generate enough money to pay the staff. The minimum wage has been around a while and is no new thing. I'd be very interested to hear what the DTI would have to say about any Edinburgh Fesitval venue not planning to pay their staff a decent wage; deliberate non-payment of the minimum wage is a criminal offence. p.s. for anyone interested the NMW website is at www.tiger.gov.uk and the NMW helpline is 08456 000678 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 How does this fit with fringe / profit share work?It is presumably still OK for people to work on a voluntary basis (ie for nothing) and to cover their expenses. At what point does this become a wage and therefore need to meet the minimum?Could they be employed on a fee basis for the period of the festival and thus bypass the minimum wage?Don't even mention working time directive !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James C Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Employment rules & regs aside for a minute. The first time I did Edinburgh was with my drama school, just after I graduated. We ran a venue for our own shows and for visiting companies - A much more raw and exposed experience than any work I had done during the (nonetheless excellent) course. Obviously we weren't paid, and even had to make a small contribution towards our digs (graduates and students were there for the experience - no-one was made to go). I left Edinburgh having had a fantastic, exhausting, invalauble time, but with a phenomenal debt accrued over a month. Even low paid "expenses" would have made a huge difference to my bank manager's blood pressure and tension headaches :( . NMW and WTD seem to stipulate that its fine for venues to use voluntary staff, but if they pay them anything, then it has to be the NMW. Enforcement of this will only mean venues still using staff eager for experience, but taking them on as unpaid volunteers. This way, the venue makes bigger profits (or smaller losses ;) ), and the staff leave Edinburgh even worse off financially. If anything, its an elitist approach, as only well-funded people could aford to work for a month for free, while still inevitably making the most of the late licensing laws :P I do value elements (and the principle) of NMW and WTD, but they wouldn't seem to benefit anybody except the employer in this case. For the record, anyone seeking a month of intense work experience, coupled with some quality partying would do well to get yourself a job at a fringe venue - as long as you accept that the pay will be poor, the work will be long and hard, and you'll probably spend a fortune indulging in countless pints of 80/- and Guiness. ;) :P ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Robertson Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 sorry, but this seems to be the thing that we are all fighting against. How can any of us expext to earn a living wage if there are companies expecting people to work for a sleeping bag and the odd limp sandwich.I think that if a company cannot afford to pay the minimum wage then they should not be allowed to employ.Having been a production manager at the fringe a few times, I know that it is difficult to make a profit, but a lot seem to do so. I do not think that just because you are a student you should be expected to work for less than you are worth. I know that you can't pay top dollar, but it shouldn't cost crew money to work for you. How can you expect to work them 18 hours a day for a pittance.rant just starting I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I know that it is difficult to make a profit, but a lot seem to do so.It's good to have a rant. it does help doesn't it? There is a fundemental problem concerning the state of the arts in the UK! There has been for over 100 years and things will not change. The Lottery will not change things the government will not change things and people attitudes have little or no impact on the matter. It would take a 10,000 word essay to go into all the problems, benefits and artistic reasons why well funded arts is good for the country but I won't bore you with it. It theatre was run for profit all we would see on British stages would be Cats, Phanton, Mama Mia etc etc etc etc. ( a quick aside - More people watch Football on a saturday than the entire theatre going audience for ALL of the UK for one year - Just to put things into a bit of perpective here) One of reasons British theatre is seen as the best in the world is not from the profit making ventures but what happens on the side lines, the fringe, the little regional theatres, etc etc. One of the reasons British Technicains are classes as the best in the world ... well..... maybe the US films companies will tell you under their breath is beacuse we are cheap???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doris Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 What follows is NEITHER personal comment nor accusation. It’s based on the original post and some of its follow-up in order to make some general points that may not occur to those with less knowledge of the business due to their age or experience, and ask some pertinent industry questions. “…Sadly if we paid £3-60ph we would go bankrupt very quickly…†If any employer can’t pay at least the national average, and let’s face it, £3.60 is bottom-of-the-scale and hardly a king’s ransom, then I reckon there needs to be some serious questions asked before becoming involved with any such employer. So, no actual pay-per-hour at all then? Checks need to be carried out by prospective employees as to how such an arrangement squares with current legislation, the national average wage, hours per week worked, and what changes occur to an individual’s rights on acceptance? Note: - With this festival in mind, if anything akin to £3.60 per hour for core technical staff (that’s the people at the sharp-end who make the gig work and create its profit) is considered a bankrupting payment, then who does make the money at Edinburgh? Surely they can’t all be doing it for “the loveâ€, “the buzzâ€, peanuts or a “…small fee…†(see below) or have I misjudged the kindly, mega-star souls that are our stand-up regiment all this time? “…We supply accommodation and offer a (small) fee to staff to cover living expenses and the like…†Who, apart from the technical crew, is working for “…a (small) fee…â€? In general, are the “(small) feeâ€-s and “…living expenses…†based on national per diems or, in this particular festival case, a specially negotiated figure for the festival period? If the venture goes belly-up is staff remuneration safeguarded? Will staff get any sick/insurance cover in the case of injury or illness whilst employed? Is there a “help-fund†in place for those workers who get into difficulties? Will young staff receive training and/or certification of skills at the end of it all as part of the deal? Note: - Generally, I’m all for experience being given to newer members of the profession, I’m also for a level playing field for them to practice on. Accepting terms that pitch anyone into a frontline job for backline remuneration makes it all the more difficult for this industry to gain fair pay for fair work done right across the board. It perpetuates the repetitive use of beginners as general stage fodder for the entrepreneurs of this world to trade off’f; just another member of the growing list of willing “wannabe’s†who’re prepared to settle for crumbs. As with any large-scale festival event, they can be an enlightening experience… they can also be pretty damning, particularly if you’ve no money and need some. “Can't really do that in detail as they contain confidential information, we can give a breakdown of costs versus income to show why we cannot pay very much.†A general note on running a business: - If information concerning individuals is “sensitive†then it should be kept apart from the every-day accounting. If this isn’t done then two things happen by default. 1) People think, if you cite “contents of a confidential nature†as a reason for restricting access then you’ve something to hide, and 2) if you show someone an account book with blanked-out sections where the “sensitive material†has been scrubbed then you’ve got something to hide. Within reason and subject to correct, agreed procedures, individuals have the right to scrutinise any facet of any business they choose to become involved in; don’t forget, it’s not only you being assessed as a suitable employee by them… Big Note: - As a codicil to the above, I would add that use of much of what’s contained here will not necessarily get you to the front of the line at the job queue… funny old world innit? Doris aka Peter WebbArena TheatreWolves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robloxley Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 It is presumably still OK for people to work on a voluntary basis (ie for nothing) and to cover their expenses. Â At what point does this become a wage and therefore need to meet the minimum?Of course you can work on a voluntary basis, at which point you aren't entitled to the NMW. However, there are fairly specific guidelines on what is considered voluntary - e.g. you have to be free to come and go as you wish. What Fringe technical staff are free to do this during the day? By the time you are paying people any amount, they could hardly be claimed to be true volunteers (but expenses being paid can complicate this and at that point it'd be worth speaking to the NMW helpline for specific advice). My point is that Fringe venues aren't going to be able to staff their venues with true volunteers (that fill the NMW criteria) on a practical level, and so will be forced to pay the NMW to their staff. The people who will benefit are the employees - how their wages are paid for is their employer's problem. With regards to paying a minimal fee for the whole of the Fringe, this would require your staff to be genuinely self-employed and the venue to prove this. Again there are fairly tight definitions, and again the ability to come and go as you please is a consideration. At the end of the day, people deserve to be paid a decent wage for what work they do, and thankfully that is what the law has introduced (though frankly 3.60/4.20 is a pittance for skilled technical work). What does it say about the industry to students etc. (probably working for the first time), if people refuse to pay a decent wage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 ( a quick aside - More people watch Football on a saturday than the entire theatre going audience for ALL of the UK for one year - Just to put things into a bit of perpective here) Hmmm, More people go to church on a sunday than watch football and my church has a better sound rig than many local theatres.... Don't realy know where this thought is going btu though I'd share it anyway ;) James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 (though frankly 3.60/4.20 is a pittance for skilled technical work)Well 4.20 is the going rate for me and my fellow casuals at work... ;) Mind you it's slightly better than the offer for the festivals it would seem! Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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