6th Order Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I have a bit of a cross over question for you, in two parts: Firstly, in light of what the DDA says about making services accessible and avoiding discrimination, does a temporary sound system need to include a hearing loop? The situation is a church meeting in a school hall with no installed components (i.e. full get in/out each Sunday) NB I would want to provide his service whether the DDA instructs to or not. Secondly a bit of advice, given the nature of the system, does anyone know of a portable loop system with a range of 5-10m that doesn't require an actual 'loop' to be laid in place? All of the portable systems I have seen so far are for 1-2-1 situation with a range of around 1.5m or require a loop to be laid. I have searched the forum briefly and haven't found any answers so far. Mods feel free to move/split if necessary. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 There are Pros and Cons, but have a look at the Sennheiser infra-red system. No loop to install/trip over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 The DDA requires reasonable measures to be taken but doesn't define it any further. What might be reasonable for a church with 1,000 in the congregation each week is different to one with 10 in each week. You needs might be met by something as simple as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo7744 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Tangle free wire????? I gotta get me some of that! Wonder if they make Speaker and Mic cable as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Order Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 Too true! Unfortunately, it still requires laying out a 'loop'. In my case, my hall is 15m x 25m with approx 300 people in it; so you either try to cover the whole room or a small section of it. Either way it means cable on the floor, which I don't want to spend the time laying or fixing down (tape would also be a problem here in terms of safe fixing with out making the gym floor) every time we do our get-in. Ideally I'd like a loop amplifier which I can connect a single point aerial to, but I've never come across one. Following my train of though out loud...pressumably the reason for the loop (or whatever pattern id required) is to allow a lower transmission power whilst still covering a large area; giving better containment. There are Pros and Cons, but have a look at the Sennheiser infra-red system. No loop to install/trip over! Indeed. A fairly costly alternative, but it would do the job. My only concern would be getting people to use the headsets properly, but that's a people thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 As you are providing the service on a regular basis, the spirit - if not the letter of DDA would be that you should make reasonable adjustment for those who need it. 1) could you get permission from the school to install just the cable for a perimeter loop? You could offer to provide a loop facility for them if they needed it? That would allow you to just connect up the loop amp and save having to run cable each week. 2) Small personal loops are a pain, and require the person with hearing loss to sit in a specific place. 3) Infra red is/can be good, but is relatively expensive. You could consider RF solutions too. 4) Does anyone need a loop system? Although you should make reasonable adjustments to the building, the key term is reasonable adjustment. 5) Have you also thought about things that will help those with hearing loss who do not have telecoilequipped hearing aids? This could be anything from sending people on deafness awareness courses, learning sign language (if you have deaf / Deaf attendees), providing IMAG to help lip reading (sync'd off course!), improving loudspeaker coverage and reducing reverberation. 6) make sure your loop mix is intelligible. Most find that percussive instruments pump the AGC system, so a vocal rich mix with a little lead instrument is often best. lastly... 7) Could you ask the school about their obligations under DDA?! HTH, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Order Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 1) Is possible, but not ideal given the design of the hall. An option I'd rather reserve until later.2) Exactly.3) True. I also have reserves about the older members of the church adapting to new headsets etc. Again not my preferred option.4) Yes. We have several people who will need the service, if possible. They're also the ones who have their hearing aids feeding back most of the time...5) I'm working very hard on accurate coverage and reducing reflections, for everyones benefit. At the moment we have no completely deaf people in the church, but several with very poor hearing.6) Agreed. The mix can be independent and will be from a digital board, so not a problem.7) I would strongly suspect that they have no overriding obligation as in their application any staff or pupils will be using portable systems for each person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Ideally I'd like a loop amplifier which I can connect a single point aerial to, but I've never come across one.And you're unlikely to, it those damned laws of physics again!. Where's Scotty when you need him? As its regular use I'd go for the permanently (or maybe "long term temporary") installed loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 As its regular use I'd go for the permanently (or maybe "long term temporary") installed loop. Indeed... Drummerboi - could you mount the loop cable at height? Often that helps to avoid doors and other obstructions, and stops the cable being damaged by inquisitive youngsters! Ampetronic state, "Perimeter loops are ideally installed at a height of 14% of the loop width (shortest dimension), above or below the listening plane. The listening plane is normally (for a seated person) assumed to be at a height of 1.2m (ie ear level). This gives two possible loop wire installation heights – one above and the other below the listening plane. So the ideal install height could be in the basement, at floor level or high up the wall, all depending on room width. High level loops can be installed in plastic trunking or fixed to or behind wooden or other decorative features. The loop cable can even be run externally or directly buried if a suitable grade of cable is used". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 There are Pros and Cons, but have a look at the Sennheiser infra-red system. No loop to install/trip over!More pros than cons, imho, much better than an induction loop for all concerned, if (possibly a big if) you get the FoH bit sorted out, managing, issuing and retrieving receivers/headsets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 More pros than cons, imho, much better than an induction loop for all concerned, if (possibly a big if) you get the FoH bit sorted out, managing, issuing and retrieving receivers/headsets. I'd agree from an installation viewpoint, and the freedom from unwanted signals being induced in audio and video circuits. However, having evaluated quite a few systems of both types, I can say that the majority of IR systems I've tested leave much to be desired. Poor coverage, loss of direct line of sight from transmitters to receivers, receivers that don't work or have flat batteries or broken neck loop cables etc. are common problems. When IR works, it works very well. When it's badly done, it's horrid. Similarly, loops can be badly installed, badly set up or just not work properly, but when installed properly it is far easier for the patron or churchgoer to switch to "T" position and sit where they like, than to have to keep line of sight for IR systems. Furthermore, most deaf people do not want to draw attention to their hearing loss, and prefer the discreet loop system. Also, depending upon the denomination, bowing or kneeling can cause problems for both IR (and loops), although loops tend to fade out when the telecoil is not in the right plane, rather than the "white noise then silence" experienced when IR receivers lose the signal. For Charismatic / Pentecostal services, enthusiastic raised hands and dancing can block IR but doesn't affect loops. I think these are strong reasons why UK houses of worship choose AFILS over IR. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Just got the latest CPC catalogue in the post, in the when its gone its gone section there is a sennheiser portable kit for sub £800, which looks just right for your needs David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Just got the latest CPC catalogue in the post, in the when its gone its gone section there is a sennheiser portable kit for sub £800, which looks just right for your needs If this is their DDA80 system, it's neat, it's well thought out but it's still not what I would recommend. I believe you get one stethoscope receiver and one neck loop receiver, so you have to buy quite a few more to meet the needs of the OP's multiple users. Coverage is ~ 80m^2, which may well do the job, but it's almost certain that those with hearing loss won't sit in the coverage area of the transmitter!! Even if they know that they have to sit close to it, they'll find that other people are sitting at the front and they won't want to ask them to move, or they'll complain that it's too loud sitting near the worship band and loudspeakers.The DDA400 system would overcome some of the coverage issues, but retails for about £1850 + VAT. Furthermore, the parts for a full loop system to cover 375m^2 should cost much less than £800. I still think the AFIL system (with a cable fixed to the walls) is the better approach. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Order Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share Posted August 1, 2007 Ideally I'd like a loop amplifier which I can connect a single point aerial to, but I've never come across one.And you're unlikely to, it those damned laws of physics again!. Where's Scotty when you need him? Yes indeed. What I really meant was a way of transmitting a signal from a single aerial that a T-hearing aid can receive, rather than a 'loop amp' that can do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I think these are strong reasons why UK houses of worship choose AFILS over IR.Ah, fair points all. I've always made it a rule to have a little to do with churches as possible - some of that never occurred to me. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.