Rocket Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Hi all, I'm trying to program a chase that will make my MH660's move around in a circle, pointing towards the audience (they're sat on a box raised from the floor). So I've programmed a 4 step chase, with the light effectively making a square - a top left corner, moving across to a top right corner, down to the bottom right corner, and across to the bottom left corner - then back up and round and round etc, so it follows in a 'square'. But what I then can't do is adjust the step/fade, so that it doesn't quite complete the square, and 'rounds off' at the corners, so that it is travelling round in a circle. If you understand me?!! But no matter what I do, I can't get any settings right for it to travel in a circle - it continues to travel round in a square which looks, frankly, pants. Can anyone with any masterpiece knowledge point me in the right direction of which settings I should be adjusting, or how I need to be setting them?! I'm sure this should be extremely simple, and I've done it before (using the MP, unless I'm getting confused), yet no matter what I do I can't solve it. Am I just being thick???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMC Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Personally I would say you're making it a lot harder than it needs to be by using a Masterpiece -- but then I can't stand the things :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Try programming a diamond shape instead of a square. If you imagine a square with 0,0 at the top left, and 255,255 at the bottom right, then imaging a circle shape on top of that, you'll see you never go into the corners with your circle, but you do go to 128,0, 255,128, 128,255, 0,128, all of which are on a diamond. Also in a circle, only one of pan and tilt changes direction at a time, the other one carries on in the same direction, again similar to a diamond, but not a square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamtastic3 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 PM sent your way :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 You could slow the pan/tilt down using the fixture's speed setting on channel 5...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andylights Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Hi all, I'm trying to program a chase that will make my MH660's move around in a circle To do this correctly relies on your MP using the Chase Generator software. If you don't have - get it, it's free from Pulsar and easy to install (requires a chip change). The Chase Generator is easy to use and an amazing time and labour saving tool, not only for P+T movements but for all sorts of other effects... Circular movements are used as the programming example in the manual for the Chase Generator / Sin and Cosine settings...very easy to do. You set up two chases, one set to sin (for the pan) and the other set to cosine (for the tilt), make sure both chases are set to run at exactly the same speed (no slope as it's disabled with chase gen waveform types) AND are switched on together via an Environment memory. HTH Any other questions, just ask... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamtastic3 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Andy, on the topic of chases, do you know any other chases that give smooth movements or shapes that finish where they began with the Chase Gen?The circle one with the sine and cosine is probably the only best one I've used over the years which will complete a full circle. Is there any more? I just seem to make infinity movement chases all the time for any other shapes. I can't even do perfect ballyhoos without it somewhere ending in the 'corner' of the X and Y range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Use Andy's circle chase, but double (exactly) the speed of the pan (or tilt). Than try three times speed, two thirds, etc to get different results each time. (This answer is based on my understanding about of maths involved & having no knowledge of the desk :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andylights Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Andy, on the topic of chases, do you know any other chases that give smooth movements or shapes that finish where they began with the Chase Gen? Have you tried experimenting with the chase times as Mark suggests above? Varying the times (but still using the sin and cosine shapes) can give some interesting and usable movemnts...Lissajous figures. Also, do you program a position off-set? IE two scenes that contain a low position and high position (or start and end, if you prefer) for both pan and tilt (more useful for moving heads, but scans also, if you need to limit the movement) So your Sin and Cosine chases each contain two steps. Try scaling the chases as well -via the fader for the chase pad. You could also try Saw Tooth Up (S.t.UP), Saw Tooth Down (S.t.dn) as these are also suitable for movements, as the active channels are spaced evenly around one cycle of the waveform and follow one after the other. If you may already use the following technique (it's obvious to me, but I've seen many desks programed with loads of pan and tilt scenes when it really isn't necessary, when using the chase gen) Program a center pan scene and a center tilt scene. Then program a tilt limit and a separate pan limit scene (two steps - low and high). Then program a chase containing just the tilt limits (two steps) and set the chase gen to "Alt." , repeat with a new chase, but program set the chase gen with "PAIr". Next repeat the above but using the Pan limit scenes. Program several environments and use a combination of just the center pan scene (to hold the pans in position) with tilt chase (to move combinations of tilts - depending on what you set the chase gen to do, for that particular chase). Then do it the other way round - center tilt scene + pan chase. Then for even more variations use a pan and tilt chase together.Vary the speed and slope for sexy beam work. Then mix with some shutter chases on top of the movement. For 'special' movement, try playing with the FILL types. Use a center scene for pan (or tilt) and set a chase using limit scenes with chase gen set to Fill up, down or cascade (FIL.U , FIL.d and CASC). This also works well for shutters and colours. Finaly, try using two limit scenes for gobo rocking and colour bump chases. (These answers are based on my having no understanding of the maths involved and some knowledge of the desk :) ) HTH Regards, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamtastic3 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Cheers Andy, will crack on with the effects!!! I usually do as what you've said you've kind of seen: basically have say 9 different pans and 9 different tilts, mix and match and then use what I want in an environment. For scaling movement chases I've used my own method of keeping the shape 'in the middle', instead of the two scene method. It works on the principle of halfing the percentage number left over from the scaled chase. So say you have a pan chase at 100% and only need 40% of a pan chase, you take that chase fader down to 40% leaving with you with 60% (the pan will be panning slightly to one side only). Then you just half the 60%, which is 30% and then add 30% from your pan scene fader. Pop it into an Enviroment and you have a 40% pan chase that should be 'in the middle' of the pan range (30% on each side). Hope that makes sence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andylights Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 If it works.. it works! I liked the using scene limits and centre scenes, simply because it made moving to different size venues easy, only a few edits and everything would fit. But then after changing to the Pearl, things got even easier...but don't get me wrong I still use the MP on a lot of jobs (all three of them!) and I still love the desk( for club work). I leave a mic in the case for the sound input, so there is always some live sound control. But I've never bothered to do that with the Pearl...I remember the change from MP to Pearl was quite 'bumpy' - I kept on trying to run shows how I did on the MP. Eventual I realized I had to forget everything and start again. Should have worked that one out a bit quicker...d'oh! Regards, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 Cheers to everyone for your replies and PMs on this. I got in touch with Pulsar for the upgrade, and have since fitted it and now have the chase generator. But I'm still struggling with the simple task of a circle!! If I make two chases, one that tilts right the way over, and one that pans right the way around, then set them as the sin & cosine using the chase generator, I can get a nice continuous movement of the light sweeping over, around, back over again, around etc. But I'm not sure what scenes and chases to program to make the lights move in a circle (facing forward, as I described in my first post). Ive tried using two two-step chases - one that tilts from the top to the bottom of the circle, and one that pans from the left to right side of the circle, but this doesn't create a circle when used with the chase generator. So I'm going wrong somewhere!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamtastic3 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 hmmm. Ok how about making a small 'circle' first. Take your two scenes, sine for pan and cosine for tilt. Don't have them up at full chase, rather bring the fader to 20% for each pan and tilt chase. Make sure your speed is the same (let's say both at 15) and make sure they are chasing in the same direction (let's say right). Stick them into an Enviroment - E1.1 and turn it off then back on. Any circle forming (at this point the pan and tilt will be small and to one 'side' of the moving light)??? If not then keep your environment on and go back to the pan and tilt scenes from which you used to make your 2 chases. Bring in 40% pan, 40% tilt and programme that into the environment as well. The light should, in theory, be in the centre of it's pan and tilt axis, with the light beam more pointing straight down (if rigged).Any circle yet??? If you do see a circle forming then great. If you need it to one side of the moving light (eg out to audience) then take some of the 40% off the tilt in the environment (by going back to its scene) or add no more than 80% tilt if your circle is facing backstage to begin with. If you still don't see a circle forming then I'm affraid I'm not too quite sure. Of course it is easier to see a circle formed in a scanners but I'm sure the principles work for moving heads (within a 360 degree movement) Remember that all the heads will not move at the same values in this effect. They will be spread out (eg as the last head starts a circle the first one finishes) .... ouch my head hurts now...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 Still no luck :( I think, for the first time with lighting, I'm going to have to admit defeat and forget about it (for now). There's obviously something I'm not quite grasping correctly, about the way these scenes / chases / environments should be programmed - but I don't know what it is. There's no one near me thats experienced enough with this desk to help me out either. I suppose thats what you get when you teach yourself everything from scratch (although I'm going to Uni to do lighting in September, all my knowledge so far has come from either here or from a lot of trial and error!!). It's so frustrating though :) edit-typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamtastic3 Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Well don't worry Rocket,just add it to the other reasons why many technicians see the desk as a DISASterpiece :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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