Using multiple PAs

[The Boogie Man]

I've heard mentioned a few times about the sound guy who does the peppers sound using two pa's.

If, using my setup of acoustic guitar and vocals as an example, the two signals were sent to two separate small systems would there be any advantages?

baz

[Rob_Beech]

The idea of using 2 systems is to firstly have more control over the sound and secondly (and I'd say more importantly) to keep separation between sounds. More items within a mix is more for the speakers to do, keeping vocals separate should make a clearer sound that isn't cluttered.

 

Slightly OT, it annoys me when I ask what people require in their monitors, and they say a bit of everything. This clutters the mix up and then they wonder why they have a less than adequate mix. the volume required to let the vocals cut through every other instrument in the monitors, added to the stage noise, added to everything else makes for a very cluttered mix.

 

Back on topic.

Will it improve YOUR sound? Possibly, will it be worth it? Probably not. The extra time effort space and money it would cost would probably outweigh the minimal advantages you MAY see in doing so. In smaller venues you would have sightline problems, coverage issues (you couldn't cover a wide area with both systems practically), IMO, you would probably not benefit at all, and if you did it would be minimal, so much so that the extra gear involved would not be worth it.

 

 

Rob

[MarkPAman]

Hi Mr Boogie Man

 

I agree with Rob there.

 

I've given the two systems "Rat" method a try a few times in relatively small rooms and outside & been amazed by the improvements I got. Never done it with anything as "simple" as your set up though. Given space, time, transport (and the equipment) it has become something I will do, but as soon as one of these elements is not there, I'll go back to the single system.

 

One question for you though, and you may have told us before, does your guitar go through its own amp on stage, or is it direct to the desk. If through an amp, how about a second speaker (if the amp can do it) placed so that the guitar's amp and speakers effectively becomes the second PA. I realise that this could make everything more difficult to set up and opperate.

[The Boogie Man]

Cheers Rob and Mark,

 

It was more of a curiosity than anything else, but with my system there would be the ability to try it.

Mark, my guitars are pre-amped only then to the desk. I can easily spit the guitar sound in many ways as with a bit of plumbing it can hit the desk via 4 XLRs.

The reason I was curious was that with my set up I don't use ( sit down if not already ) a crossover. The pa is fed from the mixer then the sound is split into as many amps as required for the room. I know it's not conventional, but it works. There is almost no freq above 8-10khz or below 100htz from my sound so why use one. The drivers in the stacks are 15"s 12"s 8"s and horns so between them the whole sound is covered.

So with the sound in a small room going into say two 12"s stacked, as my voice is droning along around 400htz and my guitar likewise, I wondered if it might sound better with the vocals in one and the guitar in tuther. The advantage Ican see is the ability to eq the two separately. Just an idea.

baz

[MarkPAman]

If you have the stuff & the time to play, then go for it! You may find that you never want to go back, or that it was not worth the effort. Do check that any improvement you get is good for the whole audience, not just the bit in the middle.

[Stuart91]

I don't use a crossover. There is almost no freq above 8-10khz or below 100htz from my sound so why use one.

 

You probably won't have a problem with your top boxes - the horns or tweets will likely be protected by a passive crossover which keeps them happy. However, whilst some subs will have a passive crossover built in, many don't. The subs will still work, but will slowly toast themselves trying to reproduce the higher frequencies. Moving a 15" cone in and out 10,000 times a second doesn't do it much good. I learnt this lesson the hard way with Celestion SR8 cabinets, during an early attempt at aux-fed subs.

 

If you're short on budget, buy a Behringer Ultradrive. It's got a heap of EQ etc. built in as well as the crossover function. This will cost you less than a couple of blown drivers, and you'll probably find that overall the sound is better.

[Rob_Beech]

And you can also make use of the remaining input and 2 remaining outputs (if you used 4 outputs for L&R sub and top) to drive a pair of full range for the guitar or to test your separate system idea some other way.

[The Boogie Man]

I know what your saying about the speakers, but as for a crossover It is just doesn't do anything. I used to have a pair of bass bins that were fed by an active crossover (I do own and use them for bands etc)but when the freq was set much lower than 150htz there was almost no sound coming out. So I was dragging round a set of cabs, a xover and a power amp that were just ornaments. I know a 15" bass pa driver wont appreciate high freq to much, but I should have mentioned the 15"s in my stacks are in mid range boxes and are actually celestion sidewinder guitar drivers. They give a lot more warmth for the acoustic. Hence why I'm thinking of sending the vocals to just the 8" truvox's and horns.

baz

[Brian]

IIRC the engineer for Cliff Richard used to tour two systems: one for vocals and one for the band. Also IIRC, the vocal one was a 3-way system with crossover points optimised for vocals and the band went through a 4-way system, again with optimised crossover points.

[Chris Hinds]

It's always worth a try but the relative benefits of it for a two input system are probably marginal. As you get more complex the benefits start to pay off big time as you get more separation between the instruments and vocals. Passing vocals through a guitar driver isn't a great idea so you might gain something from giving them to just the 8/horn boxes.

 

Good luck with the experimenting.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[TallMike]

Slightly OT, it annoys me when I ask what people require in their monitors, and they say a bit of everything. This clutters the mix up and then they wonder why they have a less than adequate mix. the volume required to let the vocals cut through every other instrument in the monitors, added to the stage noise, added to everything else makes for a very cluttered mix.

 

Rob

 

Requests for this are usually politely ignored.... :)

[Rob_Beech]

Yes, the trouble is though, you then get the fight,

 

I can't hear his guitar, up it goes, now I can't hear the bass, up it goes, I need to hear the drums, up they go, now my guitar isn't even in the monitors what are you doing (of course it is but they can't hear it above the other rubbish), so they do another song for soundcheck.

 

Well, are you putting the vocals in the monitors or not.....

 

 

That said a recent gig I did (with me on stage) I want 3 things in my monitor, my 2 keyboards and my vocal. I got 1 keyboard and someone else's vocal. I understand things are pretty tight for a 4 piece band on a 40 frame MH3 (purely as a monitor board) .....oh wait....