PC based control or lighing desk control, which?

[SteveAATW]

I think it boils down to application, but the line between that is not as clear as it once was.

 

From my point of view if I'm working as a light jock in a nightclub I may want access to multiple pages of around 20 cues which store preset routines for the movers across various styles - slow, fast, dark, all out strobe fest, breakdowns etc. and then have another 20 flash keys for strobes, parcans, effects, smoke etc. In this situation no console can come close to providing the speed of access that a midi keyboard does, plus if the flash effects are mapped well on the keyboard you can busk some pretty impressive shows by effectively playing the lights like a piano. In this situation you very rarely need faders, its all about speed of movement between cues. For this Showcad Artist is fantastic, much like the DOS version of Showcad was before it.

 

 

However, if you are doing theatrical stuff or scripted live concerts, I imagine you would be quivering at the thought of what I've just said above - you'll want a rock solid console and you'll want the ability to react to failures/changes on the night by having the faders in front of you. Its a while back now but I remember using a strand console and across many events it was fairly dependable (though it loved eating memory backup batteries) and we could always cope with with any unforeseen events.

 

 

I do think though that if you are cost sensitive and open to using midi fader interfaces, consoles start to look very very expensive in terms of features when compared to the PC alternatives. PC stability is something that I think people still hold a grudge over from years ago. A decent XP install with plenty of RAM on fairly standard hardware will go on performing 24/7 for years - cash machines across the country run it, yes some crash from time to time, but embedded hardware can't claim to be entirely free from glitches either and when embedded goes down its often much harder to diagnose the cause. Yes PC based console hardware people spend a lot of time matching hardware and testing, but much like Carillon PC's, ultimately the components come from the same place that a lot of decent PC manufacturers do. Clearly, if you start shopping in PC World or Tesco for a PC to run a show you are going to run into trouble, but I've got multiple dell optiplex machines scattered about either running Showcad or running AV on screens, CCTV etc and they all just go on and on and on without a murmour.

 

If you compare the feature set of Showcad Artist to its cost I'd like to see what consoles you could come up with that would do the same amount of features, on the same amount of lights for the same cost. Expandability is also another issue - is there many consoles that you can just lob on another DMX universe by plugging in a £300 box? Also with things like Showcad, programming moving light cues in is so much quicker than on a console - this is one time when mouse and keyboard control comes into its element.

 

There's a perfectly valid argument that if people intend on a career in the industry then they should train on consoles that they may ultimately be using, that's fair enough. But if you need a product to do a job I don't think you can just simply discount PC based solutions because they run on a PC anymore. There's also an argument about redundancy - I have a spare machine with a clone of the main show pc sat underneath. Should the worst happen I just switch the cables over - £400 for a complete backup. Spare consoles don't come any cheaper than the original.

[AndrewR]

Do you really think a £250 PC from pissyWorld is any different to the black box you get with your control wings... Or for that matter the silver box inside the Congo...

Ahem!

The bits inside a Congo, Pearl, Light Palette, Frog 2 etc etc are extremely different to the bits you see inside your 250 quid box from

 

Yes there is PC hardware inside these consoles.

However, this PC hardware (motherboard and daughtercards) is chosen from the set of EXTREMELY reliable stuff.

 

I can't speak for other manufacturers, but the ETC ones use hardware designed for Embedded systems - actually Vegas slot machines, which we chose specifically because they are built to last.

As anyone who's been to Vegas will know, slot machines aren't allowed to fail - because it'd cost far too much money for them to be down!

 

Open up your average box and you'll find the cheapest possible components, bunged together in the cheapest possible way.

(There was a spate of counterfeit capacitors a couple of years ago. It'll happen again...)

The WinXP/Vista licence costs them about £50, so how much did they spend on everything else?

 

Erm... if you are paying that much for your licence your crazy... Tiny used to pay less than that much for a complete suite of software, OS and office type things ;)

 

And I'm willing to bet that the hardware is not actually different... there are only so many manufacturers. I'm willing to bet that you are paying a premium because the system comes with a guarantee that it all works well together and has been well tested (and comes in a nice box) Do you really think a company that is shifting thousands of units a week doesn't have standards... in fact they probably spend more on quality control per machine than a company that sells in thousands a year...

 

In almost all cases you are now paying all this extra money because the control surface is bolted to the PC, heck even Eos is just a pc. The reality is that most big companies are maintaining control of their profit margins and limiting any support issues by sticking to 'propper consoles'

You're paying all that money for the development, the hardware usability and reliability, and the support you'll get.

Eos has taken a team of programmers, ergonomicists, and all the other guys involved over five years to get to where it is now.

Development isn't going to just 'stop' either, as control consoles are ongoing projects throughout the life of the product - we released a new version of Obession II offline a couple of months ago, and it's been around for how many years?

 

Also, these extremely powerful consoles are actually a huge amount cheaper in real terms than a few years ago - what was the list on a brand-new Strand 520i when it was released?

 

Fair point... except that Strand kept trying to charge that massive price for most of the life of the console and continued to charge extortionate amounts for channel unlocks... Oh, and during the period between the release of Congo and the release of Jr, full Congo was available with shocking discounts. Really shocking, made me wonder why they bothered with a list price at all...

 

As to support - no manufacturer is ever going to fully support every possible PC configuration.

Even Microsoft don't pretend to - they hand off blame to the driver manufacturer at every possible instance.

People like Chamsys and Jands will always do their best, but at the end of the day they may have to say that your PC just isn't really compatible, despite appearances to the contrary - a bad example is certain ATi graphics cards that don't really support OpenGL.

 

By ensuring that our consoles run on standardised hardware we know how to fix it - and in the event of you having a massive systems failure - say being struck by lightening or squashed by a forklift - we can fix it.

For example, if you trash the hard disk - we can have a new one out to you that day that will just work!

It's the same with every other component.

 

If it's your own PC, there is no company on the planet that can (or would try to) do that.

 

Errr well.... Microsoft hands off blame because its not their fault. Who remembers who much hardware became obsolete when XP was released because the manufacturers didn't write drivers for them... most recently Vista has had lots of stick for reliability from gamers, because a major graphics card company messed up its drivers...

 

The whole point of windows has been to make your software independent of your hardware! if your hardware works with windows and there's a problem, odds are its your software not M$

 

And AndrewR - if your system had failed - who you gonna call?

Chamsys have no stake in you - you're using free software on hardware they didn't sell.

They might be nice guys, but they're certainly not going to spend much time on you when you call to say "My freebie from you doesn't work on the stuff I bought cheap from somewhere else. Give me your time for free!"

 

If someone called you and asked that, you'd probably laugh at them.

 

Well frankly I want to take real issue with that too... ;)

 

If there was a problem with my MagicQ system I wouldn't call Chamsys (actually I have, but that system included a MagicQ mini wing, they were very helpfull) for the very reasons you mention... But then a big company doesn't neccisaraly mean better support (I'm informed Eos does not include a personality editor for support reasons oddly enough)

During a 6 month period, a Chamsys MagicQPC system never crashed... A 'propper' console from a major manufacturer crashed numerous times. And when I called about it all I got was a request for log files from the machine, the major software update that promised to add most of the functionality that was used to sell the console ;) actually made it less stable (and a key feature, MIDI, didn't work at all.) And nothing happened in 6 months to correct this. Heck, the first show I opp'ed with the console revealed a major flaw in the software... which as far as I know has never been fixed. The only time I received a positive result was when I called up and informed the manufacturer that the programmers had included a flaw that conflicted with windows and prevented your showfiles from ever being read... And that was out of quite a few phone calls :)

 

Just because its a proper console doesn't mean its any more stable, or that the support is any better...

 

maybe companys need to reconsider the economics of their research and development models...

[Zak]

Chamsys have no stake in you - you're using free software on hardware they didn't sell.

They might be nice guys, but they're certainly not going to spend much time on you when you call to say "My freebie from you doesn't work on the stuff I bought cheap from somewhere else. Give me your time for free!"

Actually, I've emailed Chamsys under exactly those circumstances. They released a beta version of their software that fixed my problem and made me a beta tester. I still haven't bought anything from them, and I probably won't. I have, however recommended their products in a variety of situations where I might not have otherwise. In fact, I'll do that here: for those concerned about the stability of Windows, the MagicQ software runs on Mac OS and Linux too. Their consoles are also Linux-based.

[dbuckley]

Under all Tomo's vitriol he does have a valid point though - if you're a pussy that needs mothering and handholding, then you better buy a product that has that costed into its price. If you are happy to say "I'm doing this and I'm carrying the can" then you can afford to look at options that don't have that support margin built into them. Note that this may mean that sometimes you have to say "no" to the LD because something you thought worked actually doesn't, and getting it fixed at 2am is not an option.

 

Just another variable in the pot. :)

[SteveAATW]

On the support side another prop for showcad - I've had new fixture templates come back the same day of asking and new features added into the program within a few days, their response to even the most obscure feature requests is always superb!

[runciblespoon]

well guys, when I posted the original query, I didnt expect such a flood of thoughtful and helpful comments to come pouring in.

As I am concerned with students running drama shows, and myself and colleagues running "seat of the pants" rock shows, conferences, concerts and all manner of things on a daily basis (every day something different and frequently three or more different events a day), I very rarely have time to script anything, so my main concerns are flexibility, ease of use, and PRICE (we currently have 5 theatres in use plus a load of other areas).

I am planning to have a standard system throughout the school so all venues operate with the same equipment and software, currently each place has a different console, which drives me mad. These range from a reasonably good ETC to a very obscure Chinese made thing, which I find totaly incomprehensible.

Also, whilst possibly some of the students may go on to work in the professional theatre, even as lighting guys, this isnt a major concern for us. usability is much more the point, and all these kids are totally computer savvy, so that is a very accesible system for them to use.

 

In answer to an earlier sort of question from one of you, our theatres range from 48 channels to 125 channels, we have some 400 lanterns of one sort or another, a small collection of various moving heads and intelligent lights, and so forth. All of this is slowly being added to all the time, as more money becomes available for this purpose.

 

Anyhow, I want to thank you all for your interesting, and helpful comments...which I continue to read with fascination. I particularly appreciate the relatively low level of "fundamentalism" that is shown by most of you.. .I appreciate guys who have their feet on the ground and who work on the principle of "if it works for me, it must be good"

[Ynot]

I'm not exactly a fan of Windows, but it's silly to claim that it's not stable enough to run a lighting controller from.

<sighs>It isn't so much whether Windows itself is unreliable but it IS about the fact that Windows is only ONE program (albeit the rather important OS) that'll be running on the PC. When you consider the average PC can have a couple of dozen major bits of software, plus LOADS of smaller programs loaded, many of which are continually calling on the resources of the machine, THAT is where I personally have concerns about running ANY critical theatre stuff on a personal c0mputer... ESPECIALLY when that PC is or CAN be connected to the web, and thus have lots of those progs in the background searching for the 'net so they can regularly check for updates.

It's often not so much risking a crash, but risking the push of a soft-key and having to wait anything from a second to a minute for the LX software maybe to react!!

 

 

ETC's custom operating software / interface, Strand lighting, another reputable company runs many of there consoles on WINDOWS XP including the everpopular Light Palatte series.

Erm, since when did Light Palette run on XP....? :)

 

 

Compulite Vector systems run off Windows, and they never crash. Only have I heard one crashing once and thats it!

Well, yes, they do.

The big BUT, however, as with similar consoles, is that the control software is specific to the console, has been installed properly with all the relevant drivers for the hardware, configured at source to run the applications and most likely has been stripped of all the non-essential cr*p that Windows has as standard but is not required by the console.

And I wouldn't expect you to have a 'net connection to allow the ingress of potential viruses, popups and all the other associated rubbish that accompanies that!

[ianknight]

Erm, since when did Light Palette run on XP....? ;)

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your OS preference) the Palette software moved to embedded XP last October/November.

 

Apparently, Genlyte Strand had encountered a lot of 'resistance' from the lighting community about the fact the software ran on Linux :) the good news is ;) that the embedded XP is known for its reliability compared to the desktop versions.

 

Basically, the main tenet (as expressed elsewhere here) is - if you use a PC for your show control - that's all it does, no web access, no design software or email clients. It's cheap and easy enough to put a second PC in the control room and even a KVM switch to use the one monitor and keyboard - but then shouldn't the Board Op be watching the show rather than checking out Eastenders gossip or playing games ? ;)

 

Or am I being old-fashioned?

[Ynot]

Erm, since when did Light Palette run on XP....? ;)

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your OS preference) the Palette software moved to embedded XP last October/November.

Hmmm.... OK - though to be honest, as I see it the new 'Strand' desks don't run what I know as LP.... :)

Basically, the main tenet (as expressed elsewhere here) is - if you use a PC for your show control - that's all it does, no web access, no design software or email clients.

Which is where the argument tends to fall down a little.

Here's a challenge - how many of those who regularly use LX software (or for that matter sound s/w) on a PC that does THAT application and NOTHING else?

[J Pearce]

I have a second boot on my PC, which has only sound/show related software on it, never sees the internet and has no unnecessary background tasks running. All data comes from a different partition to the system.

 

I've never had it crash on me, nor has it ever hung on a cue. That said the everyday boot on this PC has only crashed twice and both were my fault not the computers.

 

Windows XP is stable until you add drivers/utilities/lots of demos/fill up the hard drive.

[Tomo]

And I'm willing to bet that the hardware is not actually different... there are only so many manufacturers. I'm willing to bet that you are paying a premium because the system comes with a guarantee that it all works well together and has been well tested (and comes in a nice box) Do you really think a company that is shifting thousands of units a week doesn't have standards... in fact they probably spend more on quality control per machine than a company that sells in thousands a year...

If that £250 box lasts one year - job done.

If it fails after eighteen months - so what? It doesn't cost them anything as it's out of warranty.

 

Most people expect their lighting console to last much longer than that!

[Zak]

Apparently, Genlyte Strand had encountered a lot of 'resistance' from the lighting community about the fact the software ran on Linux

Do you have a reference for that? I'd like to see what people were objecting to, as I can't recall ever hearing of people saying "I don't want that product because it runs embedded Linux". Most people don't care what the embedded OS is on any product as long as the overall result is stable.

[Tomo]

Apparently, Genlyte Strand had encountered a lot of 'resistance' from the lighting community about the fact the software ran on Linux

Do you have a reference for that?

Everything I've heard is that the beta users really liked what "Strand" Strand had been developing.

 

My guess is that Genlyte killed the project because they felt they already had good lighting control software in the Marquee range, and decided it was cheaper to port the Marquee software over to the Light Palette hardware and add some "Strandifying" features.

 

As to whether that was a good decision? Who knows!

[dbuckley]

[yawn]

 

Heres the bottom line: whatever OS you are using will be better tested and have less bugs than the applications running on top. Any piece of software of any significant size will have bugs, and lots of them. The most paranoid and careful group of developers on the planet who write the software that runs on the space shuttle computers have managed to ship nearly two dozen bugs in the history of the shuttle. A piece of software of equivalent size developed in a normal commercial environment would be lucky to have a bug count in the hundreds, rather than the thousands.

 

Although everyone has an opinion and some anecdotal pass-me-down about the relative reliability of various operating systems, very few folks here (me included) have the knowledge to tell you which operating system(s) are more appropriate, a masters in computing science (or equivalent experience) is the entry point to understand the issues. If you cant give a reasoned argument on the merits and difficulties of spin locks in a multiprocessor environment, you simply don't have the vocabulary to discuss the issues.

 

But I can relate my experience of operating shows on a PC. I've never lost a show. I have on one occasion lost a chunk of the user interface, which would have been a pain had I needed to change certain things, but the show went on without interruption, no punter, or member of cast or crew other than me could possibly know. Thats an example of good software design, accepting that things go wrong, and attempting to minimise the impact of the failure. Many digital mixers are built similarly, allowing the UI to crash (and often be rebooted) without disturbing the audio flow.

 

I can also say I generally use a specific show-only PC, which has limited software installed, no AV, never goes on the net, doesn't get patched.

 

But, thats just my paranoia. I sometimes do shows on the laptop, as it's more convenient, particularly one-offs. When I do this I shut down all the junk that appears in the system tray etc., and just run whats required.

 

One of the big things about running shows from a PC is that you can use multiple pieces of software to deliver multiple show elements. Most discussions about lighting software on a PC comes from folks who actually want a lighting console, but can't afford one, so use a PC as a substitute. The folks who want a cheapo console substitute typically only want to control lights in a traditional manner, and their aspirations stop there.

 

I come from a different place, I don't have a lust for a console, I just want to control stuff. If I'm using slide projectors (which I've rediscovered!) I want them integrated into the cuelist.

 

Last year I did a local drama club award show, where the lappy provided lighting control, audio for stings and singer / dancer backing, and ran powerpoint for the obligatory big screen projected presentation. All on one fairly old laptop (1.2GHz, 512MB). Of course, all I did was hit one button all night...

[Nick S]

...which is effectively show control, which in my opinion - one which looking back over this thread a fair few others share - simply doesn't work in a professional theatrical environment. It may be useful in certain scenarios, but none that I, or a large number of people here, find ourselves in.