Subs

[JakeCTG]

Would 15" subs generaly not carry the sound as much as 18" so would that help to cantain the bass in smaller venues.

e.g. less than 30 meters.

[paulears]

15" subs sound different, that is all. The specs generally show and extra note or two at the bottom, but the specs really don't explain how it will sound. Some subs go "thud", some go "duh" and some just make farty noises. Much depends on what you want them to achieve. I've got 4 15" HKs which work really nicely paired with the typical plastic trapezoid 12/1" tops, puting back what the tops can't handle - but rock and roll, they aren't. I've some 15" really big boxes and they can fire a kick drum thud across the room, but are for 'balanced' music far too crude. The 18" subs in another system are tuned much lower to compliment the already decent low end response of their bi-amped tops.

 

When you walk in front of subs, you either hear every low note the bass player hits, and the kick or a sort of indistinct low frequency kick in the guts. Bigger drivers can shift more air, but don't always behave that truthfully. The bigger drivers phsyically move an awful lot, and there are limits to the accuracy with which they can do it - down to physics really.

 

To choose subs you really need to hear them work, at show levels. What you see on paper won't tell you what they sound like.

 

Your question, to be honest, is a bit confusing - what do you mean by "carry the sound?"

[JakeCTG]

By carry the sound I mean what is best to get a good kicking bass in the room but stop the sound from going to far.

 

Generally when I have used 15" subs the bass isn't to prominent a long distance away and they have a more punchy sound which I like. The 18's do move more air but don't have the punch and can be heard a fair distance away.

[Rob_Beech]

Distance is all about volume, coupling (be it coherent or not) and what's to stop it.

 

Generally with lower frequencies a group of people will not stop its "travelling" in the same way as it would if they were stood infront of your top boxes (tip, bigger stands).

 

As Paul says the main difference is the sound, and this of course varies from box to box not just driver size to size. Find a sub thats suitable if its an install, or if you are touring, find a good allrounder, you can easily pay thousands of pounds per box for them, but often do to room charateristics and the program material used you wont see a significant benefit to one costing maybe only a few hundred pounds.

 

Again as paul says its all to do with physics, 18's can't generally respond as quick as smaller drivers (though again this varies from driver to driver) so the "punch" you look for is often missing with SOME 18's. There are various 21's on the market which whilst loud, and very low, tend to just flap about uncontrollably. The flashlight 21's however IMO were pretty good at keeping control (for a 21).

 

Typically the 18inch version in the same range of subs will be louder than the 15. And of course this will mean that you'll get sound further back as its louder at the front. You often find yourself pushing the cab harder to search for that punch and when you finally find it (in a fashion) you are driving the subs harder still. making the sound travel further again.

 

I've often found the turbo 718's (and f1 218's) pretty punchy if you know how to make them sound like that, for a double 18 short horn this is pretty good. They are also very loud. And expensive.

 

You'll notice (ok so you've only had a few replies) that nobody will suggest a particular sub for you to buy, as its downto personal preference.

[SteveAATW]

Don't forget that the sub is only part of the equation, the amp which drives it is probably as important, if not more important.

 

I've got a stack of 4 Funktion One F218's, at first they were powered by a Crest CA-18, now although it was an impressive low end thump, it was just that, a thump. When we upgraded to an MC2 E45 you could hear the notes, drums etc in the bass very distinctly. The quality of the power supply in the amp, its slew rates and all sorts of other things will dictate how good a bass it can produce - switch mode is generally better for bass though.

 

Agree with Rob about the F218 and Turbo 718's, I've yet to find a box that for the size and weight can go as deep, sound as clear and throw as far. Most subs, esp direct radiating, piss most of the energy into the floor as an indistinct vibration - even some of the more expensive Nexo, EV and Martin Audio stuff just sounds rubbish and can barely throw any distance at all. Horn loaded also reduces feedback problems significantly I've found. The turbo and F1 stuff might be a tad on the pricey side, but there is a good reason why. Keep an eye out second hand though - I picked up 4 F218's for under £3k!

 

Also bear in mind mutal coupling with horn loaded boxes - I wasn't quite sure if it would actually work out right when Tony Andrews said that putting the boxes together in a stack dead centre improved the bass but its right - 4 together sounds much better than 2 together either side and you don't need to go to stereo much below 150Hz anyway.

 

As for 15" vs 18", the F1 215 boxes I've heard still sounded pretty good, but they didn't go as low, the attack on drums was a bit better defined though. As for 21" the new F221 is just pure evil ;)

[Rob_Beech]

I've yet to hear the F221 but would like to just to see what the fuss is about.

I've always thought the WSX is not a very even box, ie you get a defined sound miles away but no where else, this is no good and I find the new WS218X boxes much better for keeping an equal level (with a more useable and expected drop per distance). I was offered a truck full of WSX to replace my W8S subs and said no outright, the hybrid design works well for me.

 

I have funnily enough heard some incredible reports about thomanns pro series subs, the great big massive 2x18 monster that claims 142dB. I've not heard these but again would like to, just to see how good they can be for less than 1/4 of the cost of most of the pro range subs out there. people have said they easily live up to most of the big name double 18 subs and I really find this hard to believe but I'd love to be proved wrong. its probably worth £1000 or so just to see,

[SteveAATW]

I've yet to hear the F221 but would like to just to see what the fuss is about.

I've always thought the WSX is not a very even box, ie you get a defined sound miles away but no where else, this is no good and I find the new WS218X boxes much better for keeping an equal level (with a more useable and expected drop per distance). I was offered a truck full of WSX to replace my W8S subs and said no outright, the hybrid design works well for me.

 

I have funnily enough heard some incredible reports about thomanns pro series subs, the great big massive 2x18 monster that claims 142dB. I've not heard these but again would like to, just to see how good they can be for less than 1/4 of the cost of most of the pro range subs out there. people have said they easily live up to most of the big name double 18 subs and I really find this hard to believe but I'd love to be proved wrong. its probably worth £1000 or so just to see,

 

 

Always thought the W8S gave a very true sound and was fairly predictable, just never thought much of martins top boxes. I know they're into the whole line array is the right way thing, but compare the clarity and pain free top end of the Funktion One stuff to even Wavefront and they're miles apart and the Martin stuff isn't really any cheaper - wouldn't be so bad if it was!

 

I think the main thing about the F221 is the sheer mass of air it can shift, and how far it can shift it. Only way to describe it is that when you stand about a metre in front of a 218 stack you get that massive kick in the back with every kick drum - the 221 can do this 10 metres away whilst retaining the clarity in the bass, and it sounds like it goes lower, though whether its the air pressure giving that impression I don't know.

 

At the PLASA demo last year a few people left the room because it was at times uncomfortably powerful - felt like someone was winding you with every beat at times ;)

 

As for the Thomann boxes - it would be interesting to hear them. Ultimately the F218 is just 2 £260 drivers and about £100 of plywood - the cost is in the R&D. If Thomann have managed to source a decent driver and matched it to a decent box then they could have a decent cab quite easily and their prices are always more than friendly!

[StevieR]

As has already been said, every sub is different.

 

We have some 15" subs which have an amazing response - even in a 400 capacity room. We also have some small 12" subs which are fabulous for smaller venues. Again, the output amazed some customers.

 

You need to go and get some demos arranged to different boxes for yourself.

 

Steve

[Trunker]

There are single driver subs, double driver subs, different sizes, different wattage, different materials. If its for an install, its finding the sub/speaker that sounds the 'best' in the venue. I don't think there is a straight answer!

[Rob_Beech]

OT, what I've found with the tops, is the newer **C went down the in your face route a little where the the older box certainly had that hifi sound. Just so damn heavy. And you are quite right about the cost. Extremely expensive with the W8 retailing in its day at £3500+vat a box IIRC. I don't think its necessarily "line array is the right way" but more of a that's what they have concentrated on for a long time. I suppose I don't count being the owner of some wavefront (non line) and some blackline stuff because in owning it it is what would spring to mind, but to most people I should think saying the name Martin Audio would spring a large scale line array into their head.

 

I can certainly say I was impressed with what some of those little systems Steve showed me can do. certainly an option for the OP in his other question.

 

As for the thomann stuff, you are quite right, really must get a listen, though I some how doubt they'd be too rider friendly.

 

Rob

[JakeCTG]

I used 4 Funktion one F218's in a marquee this last weekend and they sounded great but we got some complaints what could I do another time to stop the bass going everywhere?

[paulears]

If you can solve that one you will become rich, very quickly. Seriously, subs have a set of rules all to themselves. Bass is the component that gives nearby residents the grief - as detailed in many topic over the years on here - and the cause of many legal battles. Once energetic sub-bass is in the room, then pretty well the only choices you have are to absorb it. So people are a good source, but walls only work when they have decent amounts of mass. For open air events, anything above ground is going to escape - and there isn't much you can do about it.