Advice Sought on School Upgrade

[simonbirdsey]

Hi,

 

I'm a media technician in a high school. I'm a complete newbie as far as lighting goes, but I'm trying to upgrade our hall. The state of play is that the sales rep that we have had in suggests that we have new DMX installed and that we upgrade from a Zero88 Alcora mixing desk to a Fat Frog at a total cost of about £3800. I didn't catch the wattage, but he came in to demonstrate some Robe profiles as well, which come in at £1500 each...he suggests that we get a pair.

 

I'm sure that the guy's legitimate, I just thought it sensible to do a little research on my own rather than taking his word for it.

 

As a newbie, I'm not quite sure which specs are important, but if you ask me things, I'm sure that I can go and find out what we have.

 

I know that the list price for a Fat Frog is £2175, wherever you go and that's set by the manufacturers. He has even suggested an LCT (?), which is about £300-£400 cheaper. Plus he's offering us a discount on the package.

 

I suppose my concerns are about the DMX, as I guess we must already have it to run the Alcora. I'm pretty much in the dark, so I don't know if it's totally necessary or not. Aside from that, are £1500 moving head Robe profile's what we need? They were certainly very impressive in the demo, but do we need to spend that much and are we getting the best product for ourselves or is it something that they're trying to push? I even considered getting just one at the moment...do we really need a pair?

 

Like I said, I have a feeling that he's genuine, but I'd just like to back it up a little. Especially as two years ago, before I joined the school, we paid the same company £13,000 for an overhaul of the system and now we're talking about new DMX, new dimmers, new lamps....

 

Any advice appreciated. Sorry for being so vague and newbie-ish!

 

Si

[paulears]

A few comments,

 

What is wrong with your current cabling to the dimmers? The only DMX changes would be if you bought the two movers, and really we're looking at a few quids worth of cable and a few plugs - small change really. Don't forget DMX is not a 'thing', just a communications protocol.

 

When school and college quotes are done, it's common for the firms to (sorry guys) pitch high and then come up with a better deal when pressed. They know that schools and colleges are either very, very poor, or have a huge budget waiting to be spent by people who often know very little about what they are buying. Watch out for cheap prices on the obvious kit, and then things like monitors really 'perked up' - When my olf college bought a Strand 300, the desk was cheap, but they bought the very expensive monitor in the quote, as they'd seen the lovely touch screen ones on the demo machine. What they got was a bog standard 14" computer monitor worth maybe £70?

 

Make sure the quote has model numbers on it, so you can check the prices, and don't be afraid to tell them if you find the same thing on the net cheaper. Schools especially often have no skilled staff, just keen technicians who may have been transplanetd from another department.

 

 

Do you actually want a very (from a school perspective) expensive desk when you are thinking of buying just two moving heads? Do you have a maintainance budget to cover servicing and replacement lamps. Daft question, but why have you decided the alcora needs updating - have you got more dimmers, or other new kit?

 

So - tell us a bit more about what you need to happen, that doesn't at the moment. Are you starting a new course? More shows?

[simonbirdsey]

I suppose that we want new, flashy toys and bells and whistles.

 

The truth of the matter is that we have a number of static lamps that aren't particlularly well-positioned and the teachers tend to just throw up all the faders. So, the chances of them really utilising the capabilities of the fat frog are very slim.

 

The teachers have been wowed by the Robe profiles. Our concern now is how to operate them.

 

I'd love to have the best toys to play with. But, I'd also like to try and make an informed decision rather than throwing money around hastily on the say-so of a salesman.

 

We certainly need a contingency for any damages.

 

From a layman's point of view, if you want the lights, you need the desk. But, we don't know whether we actually need the DMX.

[StevieR]

Hi Si,

 

It may be worth getting another company in to quote as well. Don't ask them to quote on the same kit as the first supplier but see what suggestions they come up with by themselves. If they come up with similar recommendations then these are more likely to be legitimate items to spend on. Its also worth asking 'why' they are specifying each item on their list.

 

I would immediately question the requirement for moving heads in this quote. Is there a real requirement for them here or are they just showing you a flashy toy to get you to spend more? There are many threads in here in relation to the pros/cons of intelligent lights - esp. in educational environments - and these may be worth taking a look at.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Steve

[Nick S]

I would imagine, given the price, you're being sold rather low wattage movers more suited to a club or disco environment. If, as you say yourself, people are currently simply 'throwing up faders', what's to say people will even both with movers? And ask questions - ask whether you might not be better off buying a load of pars, fresnels, and profiles for the £3000 you'd be spending on moving gear...who's going to be in charge of maintenance? Currently, there's a thread right below this with bulb issues in Robe gear - what if that's your Robe's some time in the future? Who comes to fix it?

 

Anyway, as others above me have said - you'd be mad not to get another quote in to give you their opinions on what you need.

 

(Also - you don't necessarily need DMX for an Alcora. They do output on analogue, I think (somebody will no doubt rapidly correct me if I'm wrong)).

[simonbirdsey]

Cheers for the post Steve,

 

I think I will go back to the various heads of department tomorrow and ask fo a bit of a rethink. We're really, really stretching ourselves to find £8000 for lighting in particular.

 

Getting another company in is a great idea.

 

The other thing is that maybe we could hire in lights for particular events and roadtest a few things.

 

From my deputy head's point of view, it's rare for him to have £8000 available, so he wants to take the opportunity to sink it into assets.

 

I think we certainly need to review the situation though.

[Nick S]

The other thing is that maybe we could hire in lights for particular events and roadtest a few things.

 

Look into hiring from the same companies you're getting quotes from - you should be able to negotiate a substantial hire discount to see if they work in your space if you're serious about buying them (and make that clear to the companies involved). This is particularly true about high value items such as consoles.

[gareth]

If your current staff have issues with effectively using the static kit that you have (just leaving them in their far-from-ideal positions and "throwing up the faders"!) then they're going to really struggle with programming a couple of moving lights - meaning that you won't get anything like the best out of them, and will be wasting your money. If you want my advice, you'd be far better served sorting out your basic kit (dimmers and generic lantern stock) and infrastructure (power supply, mains and data cabling/distribution) and augmenting it to a reasonable level. You don't say how many dimmers you already have, what your power supply capacity is, or how many lanterns you have, but I'm guessing it's quite a modest spec. Far better to build on that than waste money on toys (because in your particular situation, that's pretty much all the Robes would be, I suspect).

 

Personally, I'm not very keen on the sound of this salesman - it doesn't sound as though the package he's trying to sell to you is particularly appropriate for your needs. And what the hell did they do to the system that cost £13,000?!

 

Whereabouts in the country are you located? Your profile doesn't say ...

[mbthegreat]

At my school we have a pretty large rig, and we occassionaly rent movers, but far more useful (and what we have bought over the years) are colour scrollers, LED floods etc. We mainly do theatrical / orchestral stuff, so no disco lights needed. We do have a nice proper infastrucure though (Power distro/ DMX distro) and 72 channels of dimming, which is nice.

[simonbirdsey]

Yeah, it's seeming more and more sensible that we hire equipment in on spec...I'm not sure though, whether we lose the capitation that we have though, if we don't spend it before the end of the financial year.

 

For the way in which we use it, spending £1800 on a desk and £3000 on a couple of lights does seem extremely excessive.

 

I'll get some details of the spec together tomorrow and post it on here.

 

tnks for the advice guys. You've really helped to inform me and focus my thoughts.

 

I'm based in Cheshire btw.

 

Si

[gareth]

Understand the 'spend it or lose it' point - but I'm sure there must be better ways to spend it!

 

Whereabouts in Cheshire? I work in Mold and live near Chester, so if you're on my side of Cheshire and not too far away, and I happen to be passing your theatre at some point, I'd be happy to have a quick look and give you a bit of advice, if you like.

[Ynot]

I'm going to throw my ten penn'orth in with most of the above.

 

Recommendations:

* Seek out quotes from at least THREE of the major players - they do NOT have to be in your local area, as many will have roving technical sales people.

* Forget the idea of movers as a) you're not sure and b) it seems no-one will know how best to utilise them. Having toys is very nice, but if you can't make the best of them, then they're just a hunk of metal and plastic in the corner!.

* IF you're not already running DMX to your dimmers (ie the desk is analogue) then that would be a good move, and comparatively cheap to do.

* DO look at improving your inventory of generic static lanterns.

* DO invest in a stock of spare lamps for each type you own either now or after the purchase.

* DO assess your existing dimmers - if they are NOT DMX you may still be able to use them with a new DMX control desk but you'll need a demux. But also look at whether you could use extra dimmers to supply the stage...

* DO look at your infrastructure... If there aren't suitable places to hang the lanterns (new or old) then maybe get a quote for a new FoH bar or stage barrels - IWB preferably. And be aware that this may eat into your budget a lot, especially if you're adding to the dimmer availability.

* DON'T accept the line that there's no movement on a list price! EVER!! Salesmen are just that. They'll start at what they think they might get, but there is ALWAYS wiggle room on some if not all of the items on a shopping list. Trust me!

* and DO look at different manufacturers. get demonstrations on everything that you're unfamiliar with.

 

So, get some quotes on all of the above (don't worry about whether it all busts the budget at the start) then sit down with all the info and see what your priorities are. Strip out anything that you think is non-essential and work to what you know you need. Then start to play the haggling game! It can (sometimes) be fun!

 

An extra one, mindful of Gareth's last post...

 

* DO take up offers like that - Gareth I'm sure will be independent and give good solid advice, as I think I would were I closer.

[djw1981]

Are the current lights just pushed up because you have no access to focus/move them?

 

If so, make sure you factor some kind of access - be it bars which move up and down; scaffolding; tallescope etc which the school are happy for employees and/or students to use and factor in ongoing training for students / staff. If you are an LEA school, talk to their local theatre and see what contacts they have and what kit you could hire from them.

Try to establish who you can get to train students in use of the access equipment.

 

If you go for a 'mover' suitable desk/console then make a good relationship with a hire company as advised above, that way you can get fixtures only when you need them - no maintenance!

 

Just my thoughts.

[Stutwo]

Are the current lights just pushed up because you have no access to focus/move them?

 

If so, make sure you factor some kind of access - be it bars which move up and down; scaffolding; tallescope etc which the school are happy for employees and/or students to use and factor in ongoing training for students / staff. If you are an LEA school, talk to their local theatre and see what contacts they have and what kit you could hire from them.

Try to establish who you can get to train students in use of the access equipment.

 

If you go for a 'mover' suitable desk/console then make a good relationship with a hire company as advised above, that way you can get fixtures only when you need them - no maintenance!

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Good advice this, you would get far, far more value for money by taking some kind of training and buying a decent scaff tower/ladder to access the lights you have and buying more generics. Do you really need flashy lights that WILL be expensive to maintain?

[simonbirdsey]

Great advice guys! Cheers. I'm in Northwich btw Gareth.

 

Having considered what you've had to say it seems like a more sensible approach would be to invest in someone to come in to school to teach us about lighting....buying the kit otherwise is like puchasing a Ferrari and not taking any driving lessons!

 

We do also certainly need a contingency with regards to spare bulbs etc. So, it's no good stretching ourselves to the max.

 

Personally, I like the idea of hiring in lights and even a desk as and when we need them because a) there's no maintenance b) we can play around with different pieces of kit and c) because we're only likely to have it for a short period of time, we're more likely to take full advantage of it.

 

We could definitely do we some scaffolding or some means of moving the currents lanterns that we have, as we're very limited otherwise.

 

I'm also interested in seeing what scrollers and LEDs can do.

 

I'm really glad that I sought a second opinion, as the route we were going to take would have been a huge financial burden for years to come. This way, we now have the opportunity to buy some LCD screens to place around the school to display pupil's work...another minefield! ** laughs out loud **

 

I'd better not mention the company that we've been dealing with, but can anyone suggest some good sales/hire companies?

 

All the best,

 

Si