What to charge?

[stuartc76]

Hello,

 

I am just starting out as a freelance technician, specialising in lighting. I was just wondering what a fair price is for various things like operating shows, to designing and rigging. I have had varying figures ranging from £10 - £30 per hour. I don't want to charge myself out of the market but don't want to sell myself short.

 

In particular, I am interested in knowing what an average fee for designing and rigging a show that somebody else will operate. There is a real chance that this situation could fall my way and I want to get a good fair quote in.

 

I would be interested to hear what you established professionals charge. I am based in Edinburgh, Scotland. I look forward to hearing from you all soon.

 

Stuart Cowan

stuartcowan76@hotmail.com

[paulears]

The first thing is that it's very unusual for freelancers to price themselves at an hourly rate - indeed Her Majesty's Revenue and Cutoms may well see an hourly rate as proof that you are not freelance, but an employee, although a very short term one.

 

From the posts on this subject recently, prices quoted seem to be between £120 and £300 as day, but much depends on what the clients will accept, and how much money you need to make?

 

Based on a full day - your hourly rate makes sense - but you just need to use that as your private guide and just price up in days (or as I do sometimes) long days or short days.

 

Designing is a different matter - traditionally, a fee would be agreed, and the ALD is a good place to start - if you are into Lighting Design, then it's worth talking to them.

 

Holding out for published fees in the regions is difficult, as there are always people willing to undercut you. The best advice is to try to find something that makes you unique. That way nobody else can offer quite what you can?

 

Hope this helps a bit.

Paul

[gnomatron]

hmm, I know people in Edinburgh who have been freelance technicians for a good few years and are trying to break into design work with limited success. Your profile says you're a college student - so I'd say expecting to go straight into design work is very unrealistic. You may find some, but don't expect to get well-paid freelance design work straight off the bat, unless you already have some proven experience in it.

 

Technician work is pretty plentiful though, but be prepared to work a lot of corporate functions, unless you plan to move city! Theatre in Edinburgh has been described to me as a case of waiting for someone to die and fighting your way into their shoes... I know that all sounds a bit discouraging, but bear in mind that if you really are just starting out you're going to have to do a fair bit of grunt work before getting to do the exciting stuff.

 

Anyway, on technical stuff - most folk charge day rates; usually a scale, so up to 6 hours = half day, 6-12 = full day, 12-18 extended day and so on. Within that, folk seem to start at at least £60 for a half day, up to maybe 90 or 100 depending on experience and other more inscrutable factors - who you're working for, what you're doing exactly, and so on. Design work can probably be charged a bit higher.

[Bryson]

I know we've had this discussion before but: My Plumber charges me by the hour. The inland revenue don't think he's my employee....

 

To cut to the chase though: Can you find out what the people in the same "pool" of freelancers are charging? Charge something similar. If you're very experienced, charge a bit more, if you're not, charge a bit less. All you can do is negotiate with your potential clients.

[Guest lightnix]

Currently I push for (and usually get) £200 per day for corporate / conference work lampie work and try not to let myself get beaten below £185, unless there are PDs / travel expenses on top.

 

This fee is for 12 hours, anything significantly over that time costs another half day.

 

Due to H&S concerns, I am reluctant to do more than 18 hours at once, or more than four 14-16 hour days on the run, depending on the physical workload involved.

 

Hope that helps.

[paulears]

I know we've had this discussion before but: My Plumber charges me by the hour. The inland revenue don't think he's my employee....

Just a thought. But if your plumber needed another plumber to help him, and this extra plumber billed the first plumber, who then billed you for two mens work, who would be the employee then?

[J Pearce]

Surely the first plumber would be subcontracting the second, so no-one would be an employee or an employer?

[paulears]

this is the odd bit - HMRC say

If you can answer 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean you are self-employed.

 

* Can you hire someone to do the work for you or engage helpers at your own expense?

* Do you risk your own money?

* Do you provide the main items of equipment you need to do your job, not just the small tools many employees provide for themselves?

* Do you agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?

* Can you decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?

* Do you regularly work for a number of different people?

* Do you have to correct unsatisfactory work in your own time and at your own expense?

In my daft example of a plumber - it's unlikely on these rules that they'd be employed, although the practical reality is that they most likely are - confused? I am!

[dbuckley]

This is good old IR35. The plumber does work for many many dozens (maybe hundreds) of customers per year, and most of them he'll never see again. The stage technician only works for four different organizations in the course of the year.

 

The plumber will probably be an employee of his own company, a one man limited company, and his behavior and practice would support that. The stage technician may well work for (ie be paid as an employee by) his own limited company, but the IR may decide he is a disguised part time employee of those four organizations. On the other hand, if he worked for twenty companies in a year, that would be a pointer away from employment.

 

One of the bigger pointers towards "not an employee" is unfettered right of substitution.

[Bryson]

Indeed - my point being: the "are you paid by the hour" question is often trotted out in these situtations, but in fact, it's not relevant. The stuff you mention is relevant.

[Jivemaster]

The IR35 concept os substitution bothers me, Could a contracted DJ -Tony Blackburn- substitute another -say Fatboy slim? Would IR find it reasonable and would the client. Many artists and designers are hired ONLY for their uniqueness, not their substitutability.

[dbuckley]

DJs are entertainers, and entertainers are covered by a different set of rules.

[Bix]

When I first started out as a Freelancer I was on £80 a day gimping. (Still better than £150 a week at Concert Sys serving my time!). Currently varies between £130 and £220 for a day (lower price for warehouse/prep/easy/short days, upper bracket for corporate days), £300 - £500 for a double day (In/Op/Out).

 

Be careful of setting your rates too high until you have something to offer that warrants it or you may lose work!

[jimbo7744]

Just a random late night thought....

 

How do taxi drivers get around HMRC rules about being self employed?

 

For example, they don't or won't quote a price for driving from A-Z, but will charge you what the meter says. If you have a clear run, then the price is less. If you hit traffic then the price is more. Most will estimate a price but that isn't a guarantee as to the price you pay.

 

Surely they are self employed and fall under the same rules and regs as a freelancer that "estimates" a job shouldn't take more than 12 hours, but would want to bill their client for more should they be given incorrect or false information at the time of being booked? Or are they treated differently due to an exception in the law?

 

Jimbo

[mac.calder]

Most Taxi drivers I know are not independant - they belong to a company - which means they make less on average, however fuel, maintenance, insurance and finding customers is handled for you. It may be different in the UK though.