Capture or Wyg?

[Nick S]

So the theatre I'm at is looking to move from VectorWorks to something more specific for LD pre-vis/drawing (not for CAD, we'll keep VW for that).

 

Instinctively, we thought of WYG, but our ETC rep was big on Capture, which I've never really used. I was wondering if there was any immediate advantage of using capture instead of wyg, in conjunction with a ETC Eos setup.

 

I did google, but the most immediate topic on the subject was three years old, and I figured a lot can change in software in that time.

 

Cheers!

[Ynot]

Instinctively, we thought of WYG, but our ETC rep was big on Capture, which I've never really used. I was wondering if there was any immediate advantage of using capture instead of wyg, in conjunction with a ETC Eos setup.

Talk to Paul R (BR member) who I'm sure will be along at some stage...! :)

[tom_the_LD]

I personally prefer WYG because I find it easier to create visualisations in although you have to get a more expensive version than the bog standard one for visualtions I believe? - I downloaded capture and gave up as a bad job!!

 

The guy down who owns the local hire company (also a family friend), told me if you run the emphasis server OS on the desk (which I'm not sure from the EOS - couldn't see it did so I'm guessing it maybe doesn't), then you can hook the desk, with emphasis on, up to WYG (maybe capture as well, but I was told WYG), then it can do very clever stuff, like as well as visualising it can tell you if a lamp has gone and point out where it is on WYG - (Shade in red?) Cool don't you think? :)

 

Note that WYG is also a CAD tool which you said you were going to keep Vectorworks for? Whereas I'm not sure if capture is or is just a visualiser. Download demos and have a play with them both - see which one you like best. For example it would be no use me getting capture despite it being a fantastic program because I can't use it :blink:

[Nick512]

If Your Already drawing in Vectorworks then checkout ESP Vision.. it has plugins for vectorworks and in my opinion looks far better than anything else.

[niclights]

That looks very interesting. I've had a quick view over the info there and do intend to check the manual/demo (though my ageing PC probably won't like it!) but for the purposes of the forum I wondered if you could answer a couple of quick questions:

 

Does it contain any form of design/modelling interface or must this be done separately with Vectorworks?

 

Can it simulate LED fixtures and if so to what degree? (ie. heavily diffused as well as direct, the complex abilities of units like Pixelline etc.?)

 

Does it have easy ways to place floor fixtures without having to add pipes etc? (obviously this question might refer to Vector)

 

IMO WYG leaves a lot to be desired in interface, CAD and pretty much everything except render! I have a strong background in drawing/3D design and raytracing having used many applications but none have been so poorly implemented and user unfriendly as WYG. At its stage in development I do not think its price can be justified.

 

In your opinion how do you find the modelling interface (either Vision or Vectorworks whichever is applicable)?

 

Cheers!

[gareth]

Personally, I'd avoid WYG. I used to think it was good - I was a "customer in good standing" (as they say in their publicity) for three years. Then I realised that, for all the talk about improvements and updates and progress, and despite the annual subscription payment, it wasn't improving in ways which benefited the common-or-garden user. I've gone into detail regarding my feelings on this subject in the past, so I'm not going to do it again - do a search of the BR or PM me if you really want to know why I haven't renewed my WYG subscription this year.

 

I don't know a great deal about ESP Vision, but what I have seen of it has impressed me greatly. The guys who produce it are regular contributors to the LightNetwork forum, and they seem to be really 'together' and willing to listen and adapt.

[Tomo]

Wysiwyg makes really stunning still rendered images.

 

Other than that, it has nothing over the other more recent offerings.

 

I really like the Capture user interface - unlike Wyg you don't need to have a day or two of training to be able to use it!

 

I have no experience of Vectorworks/ESP Vision.

 

Best bet would be to download the Capture and Wyg demos - although I don't know where to get a demo of Vectorworks w/ ESP Vison.

 

The Capture demo is fully-featured, except that it times out after half an hour and you can't save anything.

[SimonW]

Note that WYG is also a CAD tool which you said you were going to keep Vectorworks for?

 

Wyg isn't suitable for serious CAD work without other tools to support it.

 

As other posters have said, you might like to investigate ESP Vision - they and Nemetschek (VectorWorks vendor) have a partnership agreement - and the two products can actually be bought in bundled form.

 

Simon.

[Tomo]

The guy down who owns the local hire company (also a family friend), told me if you run the emphasis server OS on the desk (which I'm not sure from the EOS - couldn't see it did so I'm guessing it maybe doesn't), then you can hook the desk, with emphasis on, up to WYG (maybe capture as well, but I was told WYG), then it can do very clever stuff, like as well as visualising it can tell you if a lamp has gone and point out where it is on WYG - (Shade in red?) Cool don't you think? ;)

He's got crossed wires, and is getting extremely confused.

Might I ask how you think that the data could get into the computer in the first place?

 

ETC used to sell a product called "WYSIlink" but it was only compatible with Sensor Classic dimmers - it actually had nothing to do with the lighting console.

It also was not Wysiwyg - it was a plugin for Wysiwyg that allowed Wysiwyg to use data from an ETC Net2 DMX Node w/ ETC Link.

 

The product is no longer for sale (except in very special cases), as ETC no longer have the parts to make Sensor Classic CEMs - they bought out all the chips when the silicon manufacturer stopped making them and are keeping these for repairs, as ETC believe in long-term support for their products.

 

Emphasis was based on Wysiwyg, so could use the same plugin and allow the user to see the information in another way.

 

Also, Emphasis is a lighting console, that uses the Express/Expression series of consoles as a facepanel, not a software product to be installed on any PC!

 

ETC now produce their own product called DimSTAT that allows this kind of monitoring for Sensor+, Matrix II and SineWave dimming systems, and it integrates with the Congo lighting console - however it's not for general sale as it requires special training and is not suitable for all installations.

[Nick512]

Does it contain any form of design/modelling interface or must this be done separately with Vectorworks?

 

You can edit directly in Vision, it takes a bit of getting used to but I got the hang of it very quickly. you can create whole scenes in there to as well. they also provide plugins so that you can bring designs from vectorworks or 3d studio max.

 

Can it simulate LED fixtures and if so to what degree? (ie. heavily diffused as well as direct, the complex abilities of units like Pixelline etc.?)

 

Yes it fully supports LED fixtures.. you can choose for them to be either accurate or emissive in accurate mode it will fully emulate say a pixeilline both in number of cells and beam angle/throw or you can use emmsive mode which will just glow the cells and not cast shadows or light surroundings.. this saves massively on the processing the graphics card must do.

 

Does it have easy ways to place floor fixtures without having to add pipes etc? (obviously this question might refer to Vector)

 

Yes you can place a light anywhere without needing any support both in VW and Vision.

 

In your opinion how do you find the modelling interface (either Vision or Vectorworks whichever is applicable)?

 

I do all my designs in Vectorworks I find it the simplest solution and have used the ability to interface ESP Vision many times even programming entire shows this way without any on site time and it has worked out perfectly..

[niclights]

Excellent! Thankyou - just what I needed to know ;) Actually having spent more time looking I convinced myself that one would need Vectorworks w/spotlight & renderworks etc. So this is great. One more question, out of curiosity - why then did you decide to use Vision as opposed to the output from renderworks? I assume mainly for the realtime?

[jfitzpat]

I think that the key to making good purchases with these products is to identify what, exactly, you are trying to do. It is no secret that I am a long time Capture fan (we even offer our own controller specific version), but the reasons I like it - a certain balance of easy to use CAD, basic reporting, and a good live visualizer at a reasonable price, aren't nec. right for everyone.

 

WYG and MSD are interesting programs, and the ray trace rendering is impressive, but they are pricey and the learning curve is not trivial. I myself was a relatively happy WYG customer until Cast changed my service contract options.

 

ESP Vision is a very nice visualization engine, and I have steered a number of our customers to it. Personally, I could not see myself using it without a seperate CAD package, but I'll take Nick512's word that it can be done.

 

Again, I think it all boils down to what, exactly, you really expect and need. Then factor in ease of use and overall cost.

 

Good Luck,

-jjf

[Nick512]

I use both Renderworks output and Vision output.. depends on the project and the type of renders I need.

My main use of vision is pre-programming of shows to cut down on production days.

But it does totally depend on what your needs are.

 

I did say that you can work totally in Vision, but for larger projects its easyer to work in cad first then move to vision..

[niclights]

Understood, ta!

 

Now have downloaded the demo (learned me some 'Hog too :P ) and computer complains a lot but even running in a reduced quality it looks very nice. I can certainly see the advantages over WYG with real-time rendering and therefore accurate pre-programming. Love the swirling fog!

 

To keep this relevant to original question, if you're requiring a similar quality of output that you are getting from Renderworks then WYG is the only other option. As far as I can see Capture gives a rough idea but not the true realistic images. Regarding 'live' control, WYG is similar (ie. solid 3D representation) where Vision will give you fully rendered.

[jfitzpat]

To keep this relevant to original question, if you're requiring a similar quality of output that you are getting from Renderworks then WYG is the only other option. As far as I can see Capture gives a rough idea but not the true realistic images. Regarding 'live' control, WYG is similar (ie. solid 3D representation) where Vision will give you fully rendered.

 

Yes, Capture is only a real time visualizer. For ray trace rendering their are other options, Martin Show Designer and Autodesk's offerings come to mind, but there are others.

 

-jjf