Ben Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I have been asked about the possibility of having a tank of water suspended from my grid which mid proformance will be released alowing all the water to splash down onto the stage. My first reaction was "you have to be joking" mainly because I have this thinkg about my Lights and water, also the fact that the stage is not waterproof, has holes in it and I have large amounts of power and probably dimmers substage. Unfortunatly the venues manager has said he doesnt see why I cant do it adn will not even give me any extra money to think about doing this. the show is at CSSD in the main house and is in a rep set up being proformed twice every other day for a week. what I am really after is any regulations or specific guidelines to do with distances with water and electricity in a theatrical setting, (please dont just say wiring regs, give me specific bits if you can) that will enable me to say if this id do able.anyhelp or advice you can give will be much apprieciated Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I've never been in this situation myself before, but I'm thinking that your basic splash down from the heavens would be pretty much impossible - you'd never be able to predict exactly where the water would go - not to mention it cascading through lanterns, IWBs, on stage power etc etc. And as you say yourself, if the stage has got holes in it, I can only see this making it worse. I should have thought a risk assesment on this idea would rule it out completely. Not to mention how you'd get the water to the grid etc etc. I know the Singing in the Rain tour did quite of bit of water-on-stage effects (as you'd expect) but from what I gathered on the tour, it used quite a complex system of channels etc to take the water to a specific place, take it away safely etc. I'm no means an expect on this subject, but it sounds to me in it's current guise (the idea this is), using common sense, it's a no-no. Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianl Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 water is heavy, is the grid rated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Foster Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 How much water will be in the tank, and are you releasing it all at once? If it is released all at once or quite quickly from grid height, I would imagine it would splash across the entire stage and be impossible to control and collect all the water. There are also other threads somewhere about keeping the water clean and sterilized etc etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini mansell Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 a cubic metre of water weighs a ton. so consider that also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techno_Monkey Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 They used water effects like this in An Inspector Calls, though from what I could make out, they had raised the stage up and had all the equipment underneath it to extract it from the stage and take it back up to the dispensers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdtap Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 'LoI don't know if affects you but I know there were rules in the entertainment licensing agreement that stated - No water to be used onstage. If it was required for a production inspections and rehearsals were required.If the buildings manager has said that it is ok to use water can you ask him for a risk assessment to back up his opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Basson Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 As others say, shows like Singing in the Rain do it by having a comparatively small amount of water falling and caught in a large tray built into the set, so that the water can be continually recycled (providing, and I speak from experience, that some numpty remembers to turn on the bottom pump as well as the top one.) I doubt that you'll find guidelines that will help you put the kybosh on this, since I doubt that anyone would be bonkers enough to do it in the manner that your manager seems to think fit. Regs don't prohibit a water pipe from going into an electric shower unit, for instance, but everything is done under such circumstances in a controlled manner. It is that control that is surrendered when water is allowed to splash down from the grid. I'd say that the written risk assessment is the first job: just on issues like structural damage potential you should be able to score it high enough to set alarm bells ringing. Better still, get the venue manager to do the risk assessment, post it on here and we can all have a laugh! As said by others, a cubic yard of water weighs a ton - what are the medical implications of a ton of water falling on someone from height, even if the water is not contained? Would it spread much in the distance it has to fall, before it hits the floor or some poor turn underneath it? I've never seen your venue - how close will the audience be? 50p says it'll probably splash a hell of a long way! Have a look for lighting & sound effects that might present a viable alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdtap Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Regs don't prohibit a water pipe from going into an electric shower unit, Thanks this reminds me of a reg from the my City and Guilds 181 days. I think it goes something like this: Any electrical point should be located at least 1m away from any water source. Might be able to clarify this looking in the 16th edition or the guidelines to. Sorry mine aren't to hand at the moment.A reminder that all electrical appliances used in bathrooms and such like are low voltage and double insulated. The back of a par can for instance is not .... If you don't get any information from the venue manager put your thoughts and maybe a risk assessment of the situation in writing and mail it to the relevant people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 A reminder that all electrical appliances used in bathrooms and such like are low voltage and double insulated.Sorry? My 8 1/2kW shower isn't. Nor are the lights, nor the shaver socket. The latter is derived from an isolating transformer. I'd expect a higher IP rating and a suitable design, such as string switches, but not necessarily double insulated or low voltage. Edit. Not that I use the socket, my beard is older than many of the posters on this forum!! But not Mr Tap who was born on 11 July 1904. It says so in his profile!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 It can be done if...1 the rig is rated (mentioned above) for this type of load2 any kind of safety regulation is respected3 measures are taken in protection of people and material 1 is unknown yet, but it must be a large venue when we're talking about a grid with at 1000kg / 4x250kg 'pointload' rating; & it should be counted as a semi-dynamic load (movement of the rig when released)2 a perforated floor with electric devices beneath it is not a very good starting point: I guess it's strictly forbidden anywhere.3 aahh... this is the starting point... anything available ? "...the venues manager has said he doesn't see..."This venue manager is (prob.) breaking the law, but absolutely not competent nor qualified.Reminds me of Dilberts boss.(fill 'm up with water and use as a guinea pig) Nevertheless, it has been done before, cloudburst over a pond, everything safe and nobody wet. It took a ~year to prepare. It was awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzler Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I think your venue manager is a bit crazy. You would need to lay plastic sheeting over your stage, and then put a floor over the top of it. This would have to be waterproof too. I'm guessing the cost of that alone would rule it out for you. Singing in the Rain had a very large tank at the front of the stage that most of the water ran into. I say most because you could never contain all the water. If your venue manager is adament that this can be done then you should make him/her take full responsibility for it. I imagine the effect could look really good though. Have you suggested any alternatives to the water at all? Dazza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdtap Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Have you suggested any alternatives to the water at all? Just thought of another out come of this 'effect' the actors must have a changing zone so they don't spread the water throughout the theatre. Unless of of course this doesn't involve any turns...How are you going to get the water into the grid tank? It may take some time and effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erroneousblack Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I was TSM on a fairly recent major production of Singing in the Rain and was responsible for the "rain". Put simply if your working with water you must ensure that it goes only where you want it to go. The way we acheived this was to have a large waterproofed truck, (built with marine-ply) which lived up stage behind a full black. For the rain sequence this was winched DS by myself and when it was in position confirmation was given to the DSM. She the cued me to start the rain. The rain was created by having a pump in a tank offstage that ran to a sprinkler bar rigged over the stage below the level of LX bars, the water fell only into the truck and collected in a sump from where it was pumped back to the main tank. This process was constantly monitered. Personally I think the whole idea sounds ill thought out and half baked, if anyone wanted to do something like this in my venue I would need plans, risk assessments' and an awful lot of convincing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 to answer a few questions, yes the grid is rated for very large loads but I dont have figures to hand.I have been told that no substitutes will be accepted.what I am glad to hear is that its not just me that thinks the idea is un realistic.time to drop some water on the venue manager I think... :** laughs out loud **: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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