Hazer / Singers / Smoke machines

[Ynot]

BUT it drys it out and causes residue to build up, which is the problem singers get, its not a cases of them thinking its lethal, its the effects it has on there throat at the time of exsposure.

But I would still maintain that in the majority of cases, this is still psychological, not ACTUAL.

[JMC]

English National Opera, frequently with over 60 singers & chorus on stage, with haze every time (MDG CO2 based machines) -- never a problem. Allegedly they do groan a bit now and then, but the "percieved" effects have worn off with time..

[lightsource]

Haven't read this topic in too much detail, but, from a hire company's point of view, we have to do what the hirer wants. If they say no smoke (or haze), then there is none. End of story. As a hire company, we have to do what the customer wants, weather we like it or not.

[Ike]

I do feel we should try and see it from the artists point of view. Imagine for a second you're an artist with very little technical or scientific knowledge. You've heard hundreds of storeys about haze giving people sore throats, maybe you've been to a club thats overindulged on the smoke and woke up with a bit of a sore throat the next day or spent a night singing in a very hazy environment and felt a dry throat. Maybe you do actually know a bit about chemistry and know triethylene glycol, the main ingredient in lots of smoke fluid, is actually a drying agent used extensively in gas production due to it being very hygroscopic. Either way you know it will dry your throat out (to a certain extent) and you can't afford not to be on form for tomorrows gig due to it being a big payer, high profile or just sheer professionalism. Now some lighting guy comes up to you who's obviously got a vested interest in using haze and has possibly never sang a note in his life and tells you he needs to use it, that it's this new formula that won't give you a sore throat, that even Pavarotti uses haze*!

 

If I was the artist I can think of a couple of replies I might give!

 

 

I will confess to playing devils advocate to a certain extent however would a bit of empathy really be too hard...

 

 

 

*Incidentally Pavarotti will not perform with glycol haze according to a couple of old riders.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

English National Opera, frequently with over 60 singers & chorus on stage, with haze every time (MDG CO2 based machines) -- never a problem. Allegedly they do groan a bit now and then, but the "percieved" effects have worn off with time..

Missed it before but I thought it worth pointing out that the MDG hazer you describe is a mineral oil hazer and does not have the same hygroscopic effects as glycol based haze.

 

I don't know a single artist who has a problem with mineral oil, that includes Pavarotti!

[J Pearce]

I have had a very sore dry throat that was caused by a DF50. (Before hazer was turned on I was fine, the day after the get out I was fine, all through the show my throat felt like a desert)

 

Though the extended (10hr) plotting session in thick haze was probably far higher exposure than most artists would ever get.

 

[edited for spelling]

[Ynot]

Though the extended (10hr) plotting session in thick haze was probably far higher exposure than most artists would ever get.

Actually you've probably hit a nail on the head there -----

Maybe the problem is actually TOO MUCH haze being used by over-enthused SM's or LX ops (in charge of the DMX machines...!).....

 

Have to say that many shows I've seen in the amateur arena can more often than not use FAR too much haze/smoke, and I've seen a couple of semi-pro gigs too with the same problem.

 

As with many things though, less is often more.....!

[JMC]

English National Opera, frequently with over 60 singers & chorus on stage, with haze every time (MDG CO2 based machines) -- never a problem. Allegedly they do groan a bit now and then, but the "percieved" effects have worn off with time..

Missed it before but I thought it worth pointing out that the MDG hazer you describe is a mineral oil hazer and does not have the same hygroscopic effects as glycol based haze.

 

I don't know a single artist who has a problem with mineral oil, that includes Pavarotti!

 

Quite possibly why it's used then Ike!

[LampieManPro]

well as a vocalist all I can say is that it effects me, and being a LD also I know that the haze/smoke will not harm me but it does cause me to get sore and make me cough.

 

most gigs I sing on do use haze because I allow it simply because I know how hard it is to do beam effect without it.

 

If its a one off gig im ussaly ok aslong as the opp doesnt over do it, but after a week of pure singing under hazed conditions I can notice the effects on my voice, and I usaly have to take a couple of days off to let me throat calm down a little.

 

Ive used many different haze and smoke machines and they all tend to have the same effect on me.

 

But I would still maintain that in the majority of cases, this is still psychological, not ACTUAL

 

maybe, but when your voice is your lively hood and your intrument, you will do anything to prevent it from being harmed.

 

Ive been in situations where my voice has been struggling and ive had to cut haze and smoke out, I always get a cocky SM or LX opp come up and bluff to me about it will not effect you, blah blah blah.

 

This is just ignorance,

 

If we are told we cant use it then we dont, simple as.

 

I once got my drink spiked on a gig with washing up liquid, we all know its more or less harmless, but due to me taking a large drink of it I lost my voice for a week.

 

the person who played the prank was the band leader, and he wasnt laughing when I had to pull a weeks work out the diary.

[Tomo]

well as a vocalist all I can say is that it effects me, and being a LD also I know that the haze/smoke will not harm me but it does cause me to get sore and make me cough.

Coughing from theatrical haze is purely psychological.

Seriously - I've done several empirical tests, involving hazing the room while dark then turning on the lights.

 

Nobody coughs until they can see the haze - therefore, it's all in the mind.

 

However, glycol-based smoke effects can cause throat dryness when used in excessive concentrations.

A light haze should have no effect - dense smoke may be a problem.

 

That said, if the rider says no haze machines, then they'll stay off.

Your lighting will suffer due to the lack of beam effects, but that's the production manager's choice.

[stripey_cat]

 

Coughing from theatrical haze is purely psychological.

Seriously - I've done several empirical tests, involving hazing the room while dark then turning on the lights.

 

Nobody coughs until they can see the haze - therefore, it's all in the mind.

 

 

Am I strange, then, because I find glycols have a very distinctive smell/taste, and that the heavier hazes/light fogs feel funny on your face?

 

Any aerosol will start someone who is sensitive coughing, including normal, real-world fog or steam (yes, I do normally end up coughing in the shower!). Ditto triggering asthma (and to say that anyone with severe asthma cannot sing when the asthma is under control, as someone did earlier, is ... nonsense, to put it politely). So *there is no such thing* as a fog/haze that will not set someone off. (Admittedly, I think most people who complain don't suffer such medical problems: they smell the nasty smell, or feel the haze on their skin, and tighten up in expectation of problems - mind you, just because something is psychosomatic in origin doesn't mean it has no physical effect.)

[LampieManPro]

Yes your totaly right stripey, I also cough in the shower due to the steam.

 

Tomo we are talking about haze effecting vocalists here mate not just the average punter who coughs for the sake of it.

 

Ive worked in many situations for many years and any form of smoke, haze, steam will cause me to cough, and this applies to quite a few vocalists.

 

Its not a case of seeing it and then deciding to caugh. some people, myself included are sensitive to atmospheric conditions, air conditioning, and electric heaters will dry my throat out.

 

Like ive said above people are ignarant towards those who suffer.

 

Its like saying those with epilepsy will fit just from the though of seing a flashing light, and its got nothing at all with medical conditions.

 

Tomo like you say 'Its all in the mind', or maybe just in yours.

 

vince

[AndrewR]

Why do you people not just drink a sutibly hydrating drink? something isotonic perhaps?

 

I'm always confused by singers who complain about getting dried out by *insert cause of choice* I, having a normal mammalian respirtory tract also suffer in similar ways. I drink something to stop me from getting a dry throat (not water, obviously)

 

Given that Singers are using their throat much more intensivly I am always confused that most of them either don't drink anything or just drink water.

 

I would also point out that the studies linked in this thread do make for some informative reading, but the jist as I understand it from the first link is that you will only begin to notice any effects from glycol based haze when exposed to "two to five times the broadway average" And even more interestingly one of the top broadway shows for singers taking days off for voice problems has no smoke/haze effects at all, and is also not considered to be that demanding vocally......

 

And Frontal Lobe Epilepsy is a medically documented condition that is reasonbly well understood. Not something to be thrown into a discusion to make a point.

 

Peoples throats drying out is down to so many factors its hard to argue about it. But I like Tomo's point about actually doing some testing.

 

 

Oh, and steam has made me cough in the shower, but only when it got to the point that it was all I could breathe.

[chappy]

Is it just life and something that I have to live with or should I just tell them to shut up?......I was using a smoke machine today in rehearsals for a show....and I got the usual coughs and screams as if they were going to DIE!!!

my answer to them was 'ITS NOT REAL!'

 

was just wondering if any of you have the same experience and what funny things you've heard when people are using them?

 

 

I'll start off....was at a disco once where the dj was using one and an old woman did the usual and sort of fanned it about as if it was poison...he got on the mic and said....'Dont worry madam its just a drug to make you dance' made me chuckle :P

 

sorry if this isnt in the right place...wasnt really sure where to put it...if not please move to the appropriate place and so on...

 

cheers

[DavidLee]

The smoke may not be real and the reaction almost totally psychosomatic but the effects experienced by the actors are totally real to them! The best way around the problem is to get the talents' confidence before you turn the fogger on. Generally all you need to do is explain what caused the nastiness of the old oil based smoke machines and how the one that you are using is a completely different modern design using only water and food-grade materials - specifically designed not to make you cough. Then lay down a dense fog, dive in yourself and prove it to them - even better if you have a tame singer on your side to do the demo.

 

A friend of mine used to produce a local high-quality opera group, using pro and semi-pro soloists - notoriously protective about their voices. He always gave a smoke machine briefing/demo to the cast before starting the tech and never had any trouble with them - although it probably helped that his wife was the principle sop.

 

Unfortunately he couldn't do the same for the first six rows of each audience!

 

David

[Ike]

Have a look at this thread!

Moderation: Threads merged

 

I have to disagree with David on this one, oil based smoke/haze is much better on the vocal cords, throat and lungs as it isn't hygroscopic and is preferred by every single musician and actor I know who has the ability to tell the difference.