Djbarryblue Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I have got a company coming in to do les mis and they what to use and fire replica pistoles fireing 9mm blanks and most of them are kids any one no the legality on this? I aint sure about this at all sounds bloody dangours to me ! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiona Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 The HSE have a information sheet on exactly this, it's called'Management of firearms and other weapons in productions'I'm sure you will be able to find it on their website or give them a call and they will send you one out......It covers everything that you will need to know regarding the safety side and regulations / licensing that you will need to be aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Would that be this one Fiona? James Management of firearms and other weapons in productions (PDF) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djbarryblue Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Thanks guys will have a read through this and see what I think cheers Baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techno_Monkey Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Just a quick one, how old are these "kids"? Just that I know that the cadet units over the country aged 13-18 use weapons firing blanks in replica combat situations. They are given training and are supervised by qualified personel. I am sure if they are trained (and your cast aren't stupidly young) then I would have thought it would be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 However Cadets are considered "Servants of the Crown" as far as the firearms regualtions are concerned. They are also using real weapons rather than Replicas. This doesn't mean that you can't allow kids to use blank firing replicas on stage, however you want to be very very very careful about your risk assessments, and think very carefully about the blocking of the scene. Even Blank firing replicas have a hot gas discharge which can injure. HTHJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techno_Monkey Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Oh so thats how we got away with it then! I never knew they were classed like that. Anyway thanks for clearing it up :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Foster Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Even Blank firing replicas have a hot gas discharge which can injure. I maybe wrong but I understood that blanks can even kill at close range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicgross Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 it depends on the type of blank: In our CCF at school we fire training blanks which fire like a regular bullet, but have no round to fire out. They still fire out a discharge made up of carbon, phosphorus and offer loveley chemicles. For this reason the saftey range is meant to be 15 meters when used with civies and 10 meters for army (including senior cadets) Stage blanks (correct me if im wronge) are sealed: they fire no discharge apart from hot gas. I've allways been told that they are NEVER to be aimed at someone, and the safety range is 5 meters? But yes, blanks can kill at close range, due to the carbon discharge that builds up in the barrel of the weapon: hense the safety distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egw Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 On the subject of Les Mis:One thing I would draw you attention to is that the weapons supplied for a period piece such as Les Mis may be actual weapons; either deactivated or still capable of firing a round (these are available since you cannot obtain the ammunition). These pose some additional concerns, PM me if you want to know about these weapons in any detail (I find the subject interesting but it might lead to an even longer post than I usually make :D ). I notice that you mention 9mm blanks - is the plan perhaps to match actions on stage with blank rounds fired from a pistol offstage? The management of firearms leaflet is an excellent text and the Police will have further advice - when you track down the right officer. With controlled weapons the actor uses them under the authority of the production armourer, who holds the licence, the same might extend to children but the police could answer that (I have never worked with children and firearms in the same production). On the nature of blank ammunition:A blank round consists of a metal case containing a percussion triggered explosive / expansive. When you pull the trigger this substance is ignited and burns very rapidly. This expansion of gases travells down the barrell and out of the muzzle. This process generates a lot of heat and as such oil in the barrell can burn to carbon which along with any foreign object in the barrell will then fly out at high velocity. This can cause injury, as can being hit by the discharge of gases (which will be at a few hundred degrees) before they disperse in the air. The point of the above is to describe the nature of a blank round, no solid object should come out of the muzzle of the weapon. However, sealed is possibly not the correct term; if the round were sealed nothing would get out, although abviously the front of the round needs to be crimped to stop the composition falling out :D. Dominicgross, are you absolutely sure about the discharge from the blank rounds you use; surely by definition a round which actually fires a substance is not blank and Phosphorus is a rather nasty substance. My only guess is that the burning phosphor creates a more prominent muzzle flash, which might have a point in training applications. If you find out (or already know) could you post or PM me please. Enjoy Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Even Blank firing replicas have a hot gas discharge which can injure. I maybe wrong but I understood that blanks can even kill at close range. No you are not wrong. I'm sure we all remember Brandon Lee being killed filming the Crow in 1993. Anyway a recap from imdb.... 'Lee, Brandon' died during a mishap on the set. A scene required a gun to be loaded, cocked, and then pointed at the camera. Because of the close-range of the shot, the bullets loaded had real brass caps, but no powder. After the cut, the propsmaster (not the armsmaster - he had left the set for the day) dry-fired the gun to get the #### off, knocking an empty cartridge into the barrel of the gun. The next scene to be filmed involving that gun was the rape of Shelly. The gun was loaded with blanks (which usually contain double or triple the powder of a normal bullet to make a loud noise). Lee entered the set carrying a bag of groceries containing an explosive blood pack. The script called for Funboy (Michael Massee) to shoot Eric Draven (Lee) as he entered the room, triggering the blood pack. The cartridge that was stuck in the barrel was blasted at Lee through the bag he was carrying, killing him. The footage of his death was destroyed without being developed. Lee is the son of martial arts legend 'Lee, Bruce' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Dominicgross, are you absolutely sure about the discharge from the blank rounds you use; surely by definition a round which actually fires a substance is not blank and Phosphorus is a rather nasty substance. My only guess is that the burning phosphor creates a more prominent muzzle flash, which might have a point in training applications. If you find out (or already know) could you post or PM me please. As far as I am aware there is not any phosphorus in the blank rounds used by cadets (or infact any of the armed forces) The blanks are loaded with the same propellant as a regular round, and have a cardboard wad sealing the end (As well as having the case crimped) The wadding is fired out of the end of the barrel along with the hot gases from the explosion. Oddly enough the weapons used by the real services are safer when firing blanks as they have a Blank Firing Adapter (Basically a plug) in the barrel, that allows enough pressure to build in the weapon to reload. HTHJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blame Jono Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 I would not advise using blanks on stage at all!!!I am a cadet and when we fire blanks you are surposed to aim away from people at 50 ft away because that is the distance that the discharge travels.Shoot someone with a blank from a metre away and it would be like shooting them with a shotgun.You get about a metre of flme and other crap out of the end and other stuff keeps flying for about another well 50ft max.If you use something with a blank fireing attatchment that just sends the flame about 50cm each side instead. And as far as I know only comes with the SA 80 which I doubt you'l be using.So unless you have a massive stage and everyone is going to be a long way away, id use a cap gun instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 The BFA is to enable automatics to have enough presure in the mechanism to load the next round. blanks are just differently hazardous fron live rounds. Seems a round table chat with the right policeman and the production armourer are in order. standby to find an armoury chest where it can all be secured, more than one lock and several keyholders ONE KEY EACH so that no-one can open the chest without the others present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I would not advise using blanks on stage at all!!!I am a cadet and when we fire blanks you are surposed to aim away from people at 50 ft away because that is the distance that the discharge travels.Shoot someone with a blank from a metre away and it would be like shooting them with a shotgun.I think people are getting confused here. For a stage production what you need are proper, Blank Firing, Weapons that have a sealed barrel and a special vent to allow the gas to escape. These are available from Specialist props houses like Howarth Wrightson in Manchester who do all sorts of different blank firing weapons for Stage use.I once contacted Bapty ltd to get a quote for a working Thompson SMG and asked"I understand you supply blank firing weapons?" and the reply I got was"No sir, we supply real weapons that fire blanks!" Please don't confuse the two and get your local Army cadets to help you out, as it is very unlikely the licensing officer will let you anywhere near the theatre with Live Weapons. Proper Blank firing weapons do not require a license and you don't need a qualified armourer on the premises. You will need an ADULT in charge of the weapons AT ALL TIMES when they are not on stage and this person can have NO OTHER JOB during the show, but otherwise Howarth Wrightson will supply to Amateur groups without any problems at all.PM me to get some further details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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