New Lighting Set Up - Help please

[gbenton]

Hi,

 

I am mailing on behalf of a church. The church is modern (average age 25) don't think organs and dog collars..check out the website if you are interested here. We have £2K to spend on get us started on a stage lighting system for the church. We want something that looks vairly professional that will rpoduce a rock concert type feel as supposed to mobile dj disco. We would want to get a mixture of lights(par cans??) to produce some colour washes, and some moving lights for nightclub type affects, trussing and controllers. We run variuos things in the building from Kids Clubs to our Sundays services which need more subtle lighting. Our venue is about 220metres square and 10ft-12 high. I was wondering wheter LED PAR cans might work best for us....due to the control of various lights and low heat/ power consumption. We need somone to point us in the right direction. We have a builder/ electrician in the church who would be able to install for us. I post here as I emailed three companies three days ago and have not had a reply.

Many Thanks for any help Gareth

[dave singleton]

Well for £2k unless you find some extremely good deals you may not get very far.

 

The annoying thing about this is that LED cans are suited to what your after but it doesnt sound as though your quite sure how to use things. Forgive me if I insult you with this, I dont mean to.

 

I'm more than willing to lend my support but £2k doesnt seem a great deal for all your asking for.

 

 

What kind of power is installed in the venue?

Does any rigging (i.e. bars, truss, points etc) exsist?

Do you have people with experience to operate etc?

 

The reason I ask is because these are the main things besides the equipment that could cost alot. Having power installations to power generic Par Cans is costly and not something that can just be done by anyone. The same applies to rigging points.

[Ynot]

Well for £2k unless you find some extremely good deals you may not get very far.

Unfortunately, Dave is right.

Unless you have some sort of support structure to hang the kit from, and some sort of distribution medium to get power TO the lights you're not going to go far with £2K.

 

Heck, it would probably cost you more than that to get a couple of dozen ciruits cabled to the right places!

 

Oh, and the other BIG factor in getting considered answers is your location - where in the world are you?

 

Tony

[gbenton]

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe the following would help....

Our building was refurbished about a year ago with a suspended ceiling and a new distribution board, cable running should be simple

Likewise we have a builder and an architect in the church, I think they could work out some fixing points above the supended ceiling if we know the load....what do you think??

It has a three phase supply, I'm not sure about the power capacity and is something I will look into, this partly is why I was drawn to some led lighting, so that power demand would be significantly less, am I right in thinking that the LED cans would not need dimmer packs?

We are in Portsmouth on the south coast

Comments about budget are useful, maybe we need to think about something really simple to start, like some par cans, trussing and controller and build and add??

Comments about the expertise is useful as well. Were not aiming for Live Aid, just something simple that doesn't look naff, for Sundays maybe some colour on the walls, a moving logo projected on the wall, for our kids club some reasonable disco affects

Dave, why do you feel LED's would be ideal, how difficult is it to use these things, we have very competent sound people in the church, could they be trained up, whats the best way to do this?

Thanks Again,

Gareth

[musht]

A pic of the room might help as well:

 

http://www.kingschurchportsmouth.co.uk/thekingscentre.php

 

With 12 foot ceiling trussing may not be the answer, perhaps straight alloy scaff pipe dead hung from suitable fixings above suspended ceiling would do, its always handy to have the expertise to hand...

 

Internally Wired Barrels with cabling taken neatly above ceiling to patchable dimmers in a cupboard would be ideal but would eat your £2K fast, to start with something thats going to get people interested and willing to invest more ;-)

 

Guessing that you could get alloy pipe hung in useful positions without costing much more than cost of materials, LED par cans would be pretty attractive as basic colour wash lighting.

 

LED Pars would require a straight mains power feed and a DMX 512 data feed to each light, the power could be as simple as 4 plugged into a 4gang 13A power strip.

 

Bit of front light from tungsten sources would help thoough, looks better on skin tones, Multi-pars and install dimmer like Dimension , not patchable but cheap.

 

DMX512 is a daisy chain format, controller plugs into light 1 >light 1> plugs into light 2 etc at end of chain a plug with resistor is plugged into remaining socket to terminate line.

 

Standard connector for DMX 512 is actually XLR5, LED par cans and lot else use XLR3 for DMX, mic cable can be used at a push for flexible cable and CAT5 makes excellent DMX installation cable.

 

Lot of discussion about LED pars in another thread.

 

Moving lights are expensive to maintain and look better in quantity, see previous threads with moving light and school in title for details.

 

Video projector`s getting cheaper by the minute and while your hanging things off the ceiling....

 

Yeah you can stretch £2K a fair way with bit of thought.

[Renny]

Yeah you can stretch £2K a fair way with bit of thought.

 

 

Sadly I disagree, I have a good relationship with my local supplier and £2k recently bought me 20 650w Fresnels minus barn doors. And that was a damn good deal. Even the cost of TRS is ridiculous these days as dicussed elsewhere. Good luck with your project but my advice would be to go down the ex rental for sale route.

[saturnx21]

Hi all

 

Well so far I agree with most of whats bin said but I feel that you could have eveything you want for the 2k if you speak to the right supplier but that is using the asumpsion that you use standerd pars not led ones but if you have 3 phase in the building that shouldent be a problem I have installed similer venues with similer kit and a lot can be acheived with a little if you use the equipment to its full potential (so many peaple don't )........ Check out my website for more info.......

[dave singleton]

Standard Pars will cost more than LED regardless if they're £10 jobbies or not. By the time you add a lamp, hook clamp, saftey bond they're about the same. Then think for that you need pre-wired bars, dimming, lots of cabling etc.

 

Its un-fortunatly not so easy as being able to just "do it yourself" as things have to be aproved etc. Especially for a church. I dont mean this in a nasty way, maybe by looking at the venue in person many of us could give a much clearer idea of what a realistic set up would be.

 

I'm frequently in Portsmouth, so if you want I could nip down one day and maybe lend some advice. I have a fair few contacts within the industry and very local to you who could help with the install no bother at all.

[Renny]

Standard Pars will cost more than LED regardless if they're £10 jobbies or not. By the time you add a lamp, hook clamp, saftey bond they're about the same. Then think for that you need pre-wired bars, dimming, lots of cabling etc.

 

Its un-fortunatly not so easy as being able to just "do it yourself" as things have to be aproved etc. Especially for a church. I dont mean this in a nasty way, maybe by looking at the venue in person many of us could give a much clearer idea of what a realistic set up would be.

 

I'm frequently in Portsmouth, so if you want I could nip down one day and maybe lend some advice. I have a fair few contacts within the industry and very local to you who could help with the install no bother at all.

 

 

Please don't don't take this the wrong way but if you do I understand.

 

For christ's sake you are at secondary school! How do you think you know better than people that have already posted on here with a lot of experience? I find your post more than a little patronising to the guy asking the questions. On you go mate, nip down and use all your big contacts to sort him out.

[Tomo]

The first things you need to find out are:

 

1) Hanging points.

Ask the local architect and structural engineering people to have a look at the place and work out how to hang things, and how much weight you can realistically put there, and how much it will cost you to hang a few suitable bars.

 

This will guide everything you do - it's easier to get more power put in than a new ceiling.

 

2) Power.

What the incoming mains is, what sockets already exist, what they are each rated and fused at, and where they are.

 

What would be perfect is if there are a couple of 32A TPNE Ceeform sockets (red, 5-pin caravan-style) already installed somewhere close the the room but locked in a big, ventilated cupboard, as then it would simply be a case of plugging a dimmerpack (or two) straight in and getting local help to run the wires betwixt dimmer and lights.

 

If it's bigger than 32A (ie 63A or 125A), you may need extra distribution (trip switches and sockets).

 

If you don't yet have this kind of power, then unfortunately 2K will not get you very far.

[gareth]

Well so far I agree with most of whats bin said but I feel that you could have eveything you want for the 2k if you speak to the right supplier but that is using the asumpsion that you use standerd pars not led ones but if you have 3 phase in the building that shouldent be a problem I have installed similer venues with similer kit and a lot can be acheived with a little if you use the equipment to its full potential (so many peaple don't )........ Check out my website for more info.......

Get yourself a new keyboard, Saturn - all your punctuation keys seem to be broken on the one you have. Oh, and the Blue Room admin have taken the time and effort to build a pretty good spell checker into the site - it's worth running your posts through it.

[Guest lightnix]

There's also a wealth of information on this subject to be found in the Lighting FAQ thread at the top of this forum. Scroll down until you see the bit that says, "What lighting equipment should I buy for my school / college / church / village hall / other small venue or system?"

[Stuart91]

Standard Pars will cost more than LED regardless if they're £10 jobbies or not. By the time you add a lamp, hook clamp, saftey bond they're about the same.

 

Remember that, of course, an LED parcan will still require a hook clamp and safety bond, especially if you are going to be hanging them over the heads of your congregation.

 

We've recently confirmed a lighting installation for a church. The room is about the size of a badminton court, with a stage set off it. We are going to be mounting bars on the walls (using standoff brackets) and will be hanging a few extras from some of the bars available on the stage. After much discussion (with the church, and amongst ourselves) it was decided to put in conventional Pars for almost everything, but using two LED wall washers over the back wall of the stage.

 

The main concern was that LED wouldn't have the "punch" of a conventional lamp. I've demoed a few LED fixtures and they just didn't seem bright enough. On a nightclub stage, sure, no problem, but it may well be a struggle to get by if LED is your only way of getting a colour wash.

[musht]

I've demoed a few LED fixtures and they just didn't seem bright enough. On a nightclub stage, sure, no problem, but it may well be a struggle to get by if LED is your only way of getting a colour wash.

 

Good point well made, though with some balancing of brightness in a low ceiling room, low cost LED units should give pretty good results for the cost.

 

Can only balance brightness if have dimming control over the existing lighting circuits, so if this dosen`t already exist its going to come off your current budget.

 

Agree that £2K is not going to stretch far with buying conventional dimming, control and lanterns and even more expense connecting it together, cable and connectors add up fast.

 

Would suggest that LED Pars offer a cost effective introduction, to what controllable lighting can do for the OP`s community and once the purse holders are more enthusastic , expansion will be easier.

[paulears]

There is a rather odd mix of advice here, and questions going unanswered. rether than point you of on the led thread, here's a few comments from someone who has featured them in installs, and bought a pile for my own stock.

 

The first thing is - Rock and Roll? Nope. They are really good for throwing light onto cloths, walls, floors, general areas. 8-12 of them work quite well if they are all the same colour, on at the same time. On their own they really don't cut it (yet). They will, once led brighness and quantities go up again. They do have a few advantages. You are dead right, no dimmer is required, so for the £50ish you pay, all you need is a cheap DMX control. I know a bit about the kings style churches, and no doubt within the church you will have people who can do the work competently and safely. Work doesn't have to be 'approved', unless you start to alter the building, when things get awkward. However, you are going to hang a few bars, stick in a bit of cabling and install some dimmers. If you want to make it less problematic, then simply get the power supply put in by a real sparks, and plug things into that.

 

Real, lamped PARs have punchier, much brighter beams that give that rock and roll feel - so maybe a bit of both? 3 PAR 64's a side running from a single pack, plus a few leds will give you washes for general light and a few beams you can flash, R&R style.

 

PARs will give you a running cost issue, of course - the bubbles costing more than the housing - and they don't last that long. 2K budget isn't a great deal, but you can do something with it.

 

You need to work out what exactly you need the design to do, what skills are already in house, and then take it from there. You can teach anybody to work this kind of system in ten mins, or less. Setting up the system needs a bit more skill to actually make the system work, but once it is done - technical skill isn't really needed. I see plenty where a non-skilled person turns a clunky lever thing to ON - then shoves 6 'sliders' and the lights come on. It really doesn't have to be more complicated unless you want it to be.

 

There are plenty of quite decent chinese stuff about. I had a pile off 10outof10 which they recommended when I had a client with a major budget shortfall (as in not a lot) - quite cheap, ok construction - certainly excellent value for money, and I'd guess these things are available from all sorts of dealers. They were fresnels and had decent beam width variation, pretty solid barn doors good light output. They are a bit compromised in the build quality - needing a screwdriver for lamp access, and they get damn hot - but on a budget they are ok. Loads of cheap dimmers about now. The only thing you should do is make certain whatever you decide on, you have scope to add kit later - so even if you could pair up lanterns, why bother, get another dimmer pack. when you add more lighting, then you can pair up.

 

Last thing on the Blue Room. Advice is always plentiful. Some is right on the money, some is far off - other advice has a bit of spin, other advice tends to be wary and negative. It is up to you to filter this all out. Generally, you get a pretty good idea from how the posts appear. A post that appears to have taken as much time to do as a text message may indicate something. Others have decent information. There is one last type, and that is advice from people who have not had the experience - difficult to assess this type, but there are usually clues. I'd re-read this thread and put all our words of wisdom into little boxes - which one, is up to you.

caveat lector