HSC says "Get a life"

[Seano]

Well its about time:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2006/c06021.htm

 

Sean

x

[Guest lightnix]

Some wise words in that article for sure, but they don't address what is (IMO) the root of the problem, namely: The Compensation Culture.

 

What it all boils down to is that people are terrified of being sued and with even a broken ankle commanding a six figure payout these days, who can blame them? Even in the event that such a claim is unsuccessful, the legal costs of defending it can be crippling for many companies (never mind individuals).

 

People are such hypocrites. On the one hand they're forever bleating on about "bl00dy Health & Safety" and how it's ruining everybody's fun; but as soon as they so much as cut their little fingers, it's off to the ambulance-chasers to see what their chances of a big, fat payout are

 

Who needs conspiracy theories, when we manage to conspire against ourselves so effectively in reality, on an almost daily basis? :P

[trotboy]

I sincerely hope that some of the H&S Anoraks who delight in pointing out every little flaw in everyone elses posts on this site and seem to delight in sharp intakes of breath at the idea of anyone trying anything they haven't thought to do themselves, many of whom seem to frequent this site, will read this statement carefully and maybe concentrate a little harder on some of the more important things in life.

[Ynot]

I sincerely hope that some of the H&S Anoraks who delight in pointing out every little flaw in everyone elses posts on this site and seem to delight in sharp intakes of breath at the idea of anyone trying anything they haven't thought to do themselves, many of whom seem to frequent this site, will read this statement carefully and maybe concentrate a little harder on some of the more important things in life.

I think I have to say another disappointing statement from you Steve.

MOST of us here who have experience in the real world (be it am or pro) can usually tell the difference between the sensible H & S aspects under discussion from the ludicrous.

We can also differentiate between the experienced posters and the young, or naive or simply newbies, and will on most occasions offer the right advice to the right people in the right way.

 

The article (if you take the time to read it) states clearly that whilst there is still a definite need for proper H & S practices and legislation, there is conversely NOT really room for the pedantic, pen pushing over-reactionary and PC brigade which seems to be filtering down into everyday life.

 

The theatre IS a potentially dangerous place, and anyone who tries to say otherwise is talking from his/her nether regions.

 

Can I ask, therefore, with the utmost respect, that if you disagree with so many of the statements made here, why do you frequent the Blue Room?

 

The majority here usually issue guarded responses, and most likely in the format of "That's wrong" or "Unsafe" but will usually follow up with alternatives, or constructive advice.

[Just Some Bloke]

The press release is very sensible. It points out that, while H&S is important, it can easily be taken to extremes.

 

Most risk assessments are carried out by looking at not just how bad an accident could be should something go wrong, but also how likely it is to go wrong in the first place. Too many people miss the second bit when yelling "you can't do that because of health and safety".

 

I occasionally give talks on H&S in the theatre to students or production companies and often quote the story looked into by the Today programme (Radio 4) one "silly season": a village had a cricket team who had been playing cricket on the village green for hundreds of years. Along came a risk assessor who reported back to the council. They fitted a huge, unsightly, 12foot high fence around the village green. When asked why they said the risk assessors had told them a cricket ball could be hit for a 6 and go through a passing car window, possibly causing death. Having been informed of this by risk assessors appointed by themselves, they had to deal with it, because otherwise if someone were to be fatally injured they would be liable. "How often has such a thing happened in the 600 years you've been going?" they were asked. "Never" came the reply. Clearly the risk assessors had only done the first half of the assessment: how bad could it be? Answer - someone could die. 10/10 score. The second half would have been - how likely is that to happen? Answer - very unlikely. 1/10 score. Multiply the 2 together gives you 10/100 (acceptable risk - no further risk reduction required). Fence was unneccesary.

 

Now let's look at a fictional situation where someone sets up an inappropriate form of rigging, for instance. How bad would it be if the rigging gave out and a parcan fell? 8/10 How likely is that to happen, given that the rigging is unsuitable? 5/10 minimum. Risk 40/100 (risk needs mitigating).

 

It seems quite clear to me which one the HSE are saying is wrong.

 

Professional tech managers and technicians need to look out for situations like the latter constantly and avoid the possible risk of injury to others. Where the risk is so small as to be "just one of those things" if an accident happened, then we shouldn't waste too much time worrying about it. Where the risk is such that, if something were to go wrong, we would need to look to our consciences, then we should get the soul searching in before it happens and act accordingly. That's the long and the short of it.

[dbuckley]

Sounds sensible to me with just one proviso - the only authority in the land that can decide if you're being sensible or stupid are The Courts, the HSE can only offer an opinion, how much weight that opinion has is up to The Court.

[MartinGreen]

Some great stuff on this thread already. Nice to see the topic getting an airing.

 

What grates with me is that H & S is really about using common sense. Getting help in the right areas where you don't know the right answers is usually straight forward and people are happy to give their opinions and experience. One thing I have found working in the rigging and entertainment industry is that there is less of an "information is power thus I am not going to tell you anything" attitude. On several occasions I have called people up and got great advice on H & S issues. When I worked in general industry people wouldn't share a fart with you let alone H & S advice.

 

We use a risk assessment company to do our on site risk assessments. The guy is very helpful and whilst it costs us to use him he has saved us many potentially sticky situations because he is the expert in H & S and knows what constitutes a REAL risk. If I were to offer one piece of advice I would say get an independent risk asessor in because they offer a qualified opinion without being stuffy or stopping anyones enjoyment. What you do with that information is your own call.

 

Nice to see lightnix comments as well. Agree with you 100%, the ambulance chasing culture we have here is awful to see. I thought I was the only one thinking this way :P

[gareth]

Nice to see lightnix comments as well. Agree with you 100%, the ambulance chasing culture we have here is awful to see. I thought I was the only one thinking this way :)

I very much feel that way, too. The whole "where there's a blame there's a claim" compensation culture stinks. I mean, look at the way insurance premiums (of all kinds, not least public liability) are going through the roof - this is solely due to ambulance-chasing solicitors persuading people to claim for every little thing, and the dishonesty of claimants in persuing claims for things that really shouldn't be claimed for. And the ironic thing is that the people who will likely be complaining most loudly about the huge increase in premiums being imposed by companies like Norwich Union will be the ones who would be only too happy to launch a claim for compo at the slightest provocation. :P

[Guest lightnix]

Nice to see lightnix comments as well. Agree with you 100%, the ambulance chasing culture we have here is awful to see...

I very much feel that way, too. The whole "where there's a blame there's a claim" compensation culture stinks...

Thank you, chaps :)

 

It's a feeling I've had for a while, but it only recently became a "view" after a chat with my other half's daughter, who works high up in the accounts department of a major insurance company. I'd put it to her that the sky-high premiums and increasingly restrictive clauses imposed upon event organisers by insurance companies, had spoiled the "spontaneous atmosphere" at many festivals and were making it almost impossible for some of the smaller ones to continue. Her response was that the insurers had to do this in order to protect themselves as businesses, because people are suing over any/everything and the combined payouts are costing the insurance industry several million pounds each year.

 

It's all very well people saying they are "mature grown ups, capable of making their own decisions" but as soon as something goes wrong they mysteriously become "non-experts, who couldn't be reasonably expected to realise the danger they were in". They will claim "not to have seen" the warning signs and insist that there should have been somebody there to personally stop them.

 

There are also people who will fake injuries, or even deliberately injure themselves in order to get a payout. An older thread came to mind when I first read this one and how it ended is a perfect illustration of the Compensation Culture gone mad. What it leads to are (among other things) higher ticket prices, identi-kit megafestivals and

interesting discussions like this on other forums.

 

What to do about it is something I can't answer; just where do you draw the line?

 

If you take H&S "enforcement" to it's nit-pickiest extremes, then you could perhaps argue that the beer festival we went to yesterday should never have taken place, if only because alcohol is a dangerous drug, with strong statistical links to violent crime (especially domestic), the over-consumption of which annually leads to around 20,000 premature deaths in the UK alone. Was it responsible of them to have a free car park at such an event? There were no reminders about drinking and driving, or stations where people could self-breathalise (like the one I saw at a wine festival in New Zealand 12 years ago). Was it responsible of the organisers to allow children into an event, which promotes a culture of drinking? I'm sure that if presented with such concerns, beer festival organisers everywhere would claim (somewhere along the line) that their punters were "mature grown ups, capable of making their own decisions"...

 

...which was precisely my point of view yesterday, as I decided to chance it with a pint of Garton's Liquid Lobotomy (ABV 8%) and can still remember enough of the afternoon to recommend Darwin's Ghost, Hop Daemon's Skrimshander along with that old local favourite: Shepherd-Neame's Bishops Finger. And I cooked dinner when we got home (sorry if this is going OT now... :P)

[Just Some Bloke]

{snip}

... And I cooked dinner when we got home

If that involved using a knife, I hope you did a risk assessment first? :P

[Tomo]

I was going to write one for cooking dinner, but firstly I had to do a risk assessment on the hazards of writing risk assessments (RSI, possible filing cabinet collapse due to excessive weight of risk assessment etc) and determined that it was too risky to write a risk assessment* so went ahead and cooked it anyway.**

 

Then I broke my ankle, the frying pan caught fire and the whole building collapsed around my ears***

 

*Not an actual assessment

**Did in fact occur

***Not an actual occurence

[dwh]

Aah I remember back to doing Design & Technology at school when risk assesments were just made big in the syllabus; we were doing risk assesments for all sorts, first standard things like using a pillar drill, then "making a cup of coffee", "ironing trousers", "using a toaster"... Oh the joy.

[mumbles]

For an event I'm working on organising, we have an RA for secondary school children playing with a common childs block toy.... :o I think we may be heading towards a topic on random RA's that people haven't been doing recently.

[Ynot]

I was going to write one for cooking dinner, <snip>

I think Big Clive did some sort of RA for THIS dinner activity.....

(Did the rounds in Stagecraft, but well worth trotting out here as well - sorry Clive!!)