Digital Desk In House, many takers yet?

[Albatross]

Hi All,

This is not a discussion of the Pros & cons of Digital Desks versus Analogue, I know the differences :-)

 

I am trying to convince my management to invest in a Digital Desk in an effort to future proof us for the next 5 years. It's been 5 years since the last lot of equipment has been purchased & I'd like us to keep up with technology. I do believe that Digital Desks & the digitised audio path are the way to go, with huge productivity & sound quality control improvements.

 

I've met resistance which I believe is purely due to management not understanding the path that technology is taking in the audio world. I've been comparing to things like computer technology of 5 years ago versus now, and then the vinyl records versus CD, versus MP3's of now.

 

The problem I have is that I seem to be leading the charge, and can't find any Theatres locally that have installed Digital Desks. I do realise that desks such as the Mackie TT24 and the Yamaha M7CL, are breaking new ground & price points, and these are the desks I'm trying to push for. ( preferably the Yamaha).

 

My question:

Are any of you aware of any Theatres that have installed Digital desks as standard or are also contemplating it?

If so how recently & which desk?

Or if you've updated desk recently, and NOT gone digital, why not?

[GridGirl]

My university has a Yamaha DM1000 which is about a year to 18 months old - at first I thought it was a bit OTT for the job but I've now changed my mind! I was on a small-scale tour at the start of the year and came across three venues (out of six) which had digitals - two had Soundcrafts (sorry, can't remember the model) and one had a Yamaha DM2000 which I think was pretty new.

[Pete]

MY college had a DM2k as well,and I believe that theres one at Fairfield halls in Croydon,.

[griffter]

I did a tour at Easter time of some medium-large scale theatres (1000 seats+) and have to say the digital uptake on the desk front is still fairly slow. However most of these venues are receiving houses and only tend to use their in-house desks for smaller scale speech/light reinforcement shows. On chatting to some of the in-house guys they are starting to see digital desks coming through on tours but had only seen a few of the Digicos that we were touring.

 

What was pleasing to note is that the general standard of House PAs has improved a lot in recent years. I noticed two venues that had recently installed new Line Arrays to good effect.

[paulears]

Do you need a digital desk, or do you just want one.

 

In a typical producing house, with long runs of a single show, or in rep - then there are distinct advantages. I can only consider my own situation. There are quantifiable advantages in going down the difgital route, but are they financially viable ones?

 

An analogue desk will take longer to reset, repatch etc, but even on overtime, the extra increase in cost over the lifespan won't be enough. Sonic quality is better, well, better than the cheaper analogue desks. My feelings are that if you can justify the purchase price somehow, then it is a better purchase - my snag is that justifying it would not be that simple. I think I could dream up something convincing, but to be honest, probably by overplaying deficiencies in the current equipment and analogue new equipment that are perhaps a little 'steered'?

 

My worry is that becoming a pioneer is a little worrying. Software bugs, reliablity concerns all mean (at least for me) that I'd have to retain something that I could swap in for emergencies - and, how could I explain that retaining the old analogue kit for emergencies made the purchase of the digital desk necessary. If the old one is good enough for emergencies, then would this not destroy much of my case for a new one? And, if it is simply not reliable enough, then simply buying a replacement makes better financial sense.

 

So, we're back to comparing need with want. Nothing wrong with gear lust, it just makes justification dfficult (UNLESS the management want the publicity and kudos that haveing one when nobody else nearby has one, generates)

[Albatross]

Do you need a digital desk, or do you just want one.

 

So, we're back to comparing need with want. Nothing wrong with gear lust, it just makes justification difficult (UNLESS the management want the publicity and kudos that having one when nobody else nearby has one, generates)

 

Yes I hear you, and yes I do have Gear Lust :P

 

To expand on the situation a bit more, I work for a Local Council, Community Venue. 477 seat Theatre. We've been open just over 5 years, in a gutted & rebuilt hall, which has been turned into a really nice small Theatre. 30 fly lines, 4 LX bars & FOH, Strand 300 LX desk, 96 dimmers, Orchestra pit.. etc. you get the picture.

 

The place was opened , unfinished and we've been playing catch up ever since.

18 months back I managed to get a large chunk of the FOH speaker system finished, ( 2 delayed flown Tannoys) and our room professionally tuned, delays adjusted etc. ( BSS Soundweb 8 in, 8 out to 2 mains & 2 subs & 2 delays), as well as purchasing choir mics, drum mics. radio mics...etc.

 

Use & occupancy have increased dramatically in the last 2 years. When the place was opened, like anywhere new, there were predictions made with gear & how it would be used.

5 years on we've got a pretty good idea of what works, and can predict the type of work here for many years to come.

 

Shows range from dance schools, small amateur plays, through school musicals & professional music acts.

Our Yamaha GA24 ( 20 mic channels) has been strecthced to the limit many times, especially with school musicals & lapel/body mics & bands. I've typically had to compromise dramatically to get within channel limits.

 

I've been pushing for a new desk for 2 years, nearly had an analogue desk twice, but I wasn't in a position to push hard to get it.. but now am. Only recently have made the decision to push for digital, due to future trends of live performance ( more & more body mics !) digital audio snakes ( Ether sound /cobra Net) & wireless connectivity to PC's

 

We've had a number of digital desks toured through here, all plugging into our In House system, only due to our not having one.

[Bobbsy]

Okay...to start with, I'm a big fan of digital. I own two digital desks and have used quite a few others. If a planned move goes ahead I may even be one of the folks who brings a digital desk into your theatre. For me and the shows I design and mix, digital is perfect.

 

However, I'm not so sure I'd recommend it for a receiving house as you seem to have.

 

The trouble is, there is no real standardisation of the way desks operate and the learning curve you hit moving from one brand to another (even one model to another if you look at differences between the PM1D and the M7CL for example) are steep. This was bad enough when there were two major contenders for professional work (DiGiCo and Yamaha) but now Soundcraft, A&H and (soon?) Cadac have all entered the digital fray as well.

 

I'm pretty sure a show touring with a PM5D-RH is not going to want to use your new DiGiCo D5. The D5 is a great board, but if all your cues are stored on a Yamaha....well you can see the problem.

 

As it stands now, I could walk up to pretty well any analogue board (of given size) and do a show without too many transition problems. The same doesn't apply to digital, and even though I think I'm pretty savvy on digi boards, it would be brown pants time if I was presented with a different desk than the one I designed for to do a show on.

 

I enthusiastically recommend digital desks for any individual or theatre whose need is "in house" and who will have specific individuals to operate it. However, reluctantly I have to say that I don't think we're in a digital age yet for receiving house theatres with a wide range of different shows and operators transitting through.

 

Ain't gear lust a powerful urge though?

 

Bob

[StevieR]

Perth Concert Hall has a Yamaha digital desk - PM5D IIRC. More 'concert hall' than theatre but they go through a wide range of performance types.

 

S.

[Chris Hinds]

Warwick Student Union has an 01v96 for the small gigs and the Warwick Arts Centre is (or was) contemplating a DM1000 or 01v96 for the Studio Theatre.

 

I'll echo Bobbsy about designing for a certain desk and the lack of current standardisation which means that you have to have a certain desk for a tour. For one offs I think I'd still put an Analogue A&H in the house and let people bring a digital for now if their show demands it.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Albatross]

I'll echo Bobbsy about designing for a certain desk and the lack of current standardisation which means that you have to have a certain desk for a tour. For one offs I think I'd still put an Analogue A&H in the house and let people bring a digital for now if their show demands it.

 

This is the pickle I am in. I do see all the arguments for keeping it simple for the occasional other users, by having an analogue board.

 

BUT whatever I choose I am going to have for FIVE years.

 

Would you still be saying the same about an analogue versus digital desk in 2 years , do you think?

 

I am struggling with the choices that were made for the venue 5 years ago, and had been for the last 3..

[Bobbsy]

Well, my personal view is that 5 years isn't going to change the problems a touring engineer would have walking into a venue and trying to use a "foreign" digital desk. One of the things you'll find when you eventually go digital is that there is a considerable time spent programming the board before you touch a fader. The touring group will have done this on any digital board they carry and won't want to do it again.

 

I'd say the bottom line is: you have to decide whether you have a demonstrable need for the facilties of a digital board for your in-house, local productions and buy accordingly for those. Touring shows will probably not give you the justification you need. However, this is often the case even with analogue....how often have you seen a touring show bypass your board and use the one they carry?

 

Instead of tours (assuming you also have local productions) more usual justifications for going digital are things like:

 

-cost savings: a whole raft of normally outboard processing is included in the cost

 

-size reduction: a much smaller footprint is needed when you remove seats for FOH mixing

 

-operational advantages: vast flexibilty for automation and presets

 

I'm sure people will come up with lots of other suggestions.

 

Bob

[Chris Hinds]

Would you still be saying the same about an analogue versus digital desk in 2 years , do you think?

Until there is a universal standard for the recording of settings for all digital desks (unlikely) then yes I think that will remain the case. I don't see analogue desks dying out in the next 5 years, and while digital will gain more dominance there is so much choice currently that few standard have emerged. Having said that you probably can't go wrong with a Yamaha desk currently.

 

Bottom line is I'd look at what you have had through in the last year say. Had half a dozen people carrying DM1000s, or specs listing it as an acceptable choice? Then pick one up, it will serve you well. If on the other hand you've had no such requests the A&H option is probably better for you.

 

Sorry that's probably not very helpful

 

Regards

 

Chris

[griffter]

If I was to buy a future proof analogue desk I think I would go for a Midas

 

I have yet to see any pro riders that say "No Midas!"

 

It was actually really nice to go back to a Midas H3000 the other day after a few months of digital!!

[Bobbsy]

How about a Midas digital desk then? :P

 

Seriously, I've stopped short of recommending any particular board, analogue or digital, because so far we know nothing of the sort of production that goes through the OP's theatre. I agree that Midas is pretty darn rider friendly, particularly in the rock world, but even Midas isn't the "universal board".

 

Bob

[BenWall]

Just to add to this my uni which I have just left recently purchased 3 DM1000's. With the use of any other Yamaha desk as and when needed (due to our good contacts within Yamaha/Autograpgh).

 

We had a PM1D not too long ago working on the main house production, and they are hoping to have struck and agreement with Digico for the use of the D5T.

 

I personally think digital is the way to go, as stated people look at the transition from analogue to digital which I agree can be a pain in the backside to begin with. But, when you understand it the future is bright (but hopefully not Orange). I suppose the big draw back at the minute is the price. However, as with everything else the price is bound to slowly come down as the technology is used more and more.

 

Ben. :blink: