floyd99 Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Hi guys, Thinking caps on. Think Wizard of Oz, and think the twister scene... Okay, so how does one make a twister/cyclone on stage? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking possibly two moving lights rigged next to each other, pointing straight down, and chasing around in a circle.. maybe fly the LX bar out a bit so you can't see the actual lamps.. possibly bring a scrim down in front... some smoke... Or, one moving light with a spinning gobo....? Open to suggestions!!! It's a large scale production so there will be budget.. thanks heaps guys & gals,D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick S Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Is your budget large enough / theatre technically able to fly people? Strobes can also be useful, if permitted, and you should probably also work out how long you need the effect to last - something that looks great can quickly get boring... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floyd99 Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 Cheers. Yes they plan to fly at least the witch.42 line fly tower so yeah big venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the kid Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 I think it will depend on what your set is. If it could collapse on cue and look good that mixed with smoke and fans I think could work. I'm sure there is a topic somewhere on this but I cannot find it anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floyd99 Posted July 1, 2006 Author Share Posted July 1, 2006 Yeah I haven't met with the set designer yet so not sure. I'm thinking anything done with lighting will just look tacky. Except for some strobe flashes here and there and smoke as mentioned. Maybe if I get some data flashes and throw a few around, rather than just have one normal strobe too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Hi guys, Thinking caps on. Think Wizard of Oz, and think the twister scene... Okay, so how does one make a twister/cyclone on stage?OK - first things first...You don't have to simulate any idea of spinning, as many people tend to - this is a mistake, though maybe an understandable one. Think of what conditions actually exist around a twister, and all but the actual centre is most likely going to be high speed wind travelling in one direction. personally I'd go for some high powered fans blowing copious amounts of smoke (that's been directed INTO said fans) with some side light behind it in cold colours. Also vary the speed of the fans if possible so things have a chance to stall then start again. Handfuls of straw thrown into the wind, too. (Obviously take care to observe safe use of flying straw pieces!) Not too sure about strobes/dataflashes, but if you do use those, follow your first instinct and use several, randomly spaced and randomly chased. The weather seldom follows any regular pattern! Maybe have some functional specials (outdoor lights eg) that can have random flicker then go out. Keep the main stage illumination neutral and maybe patchy. Pulse the scene slowly, rather than chase everything. Even if that's just a manual level fade on the whole cue from a submaster. Scenery manipulation can help - a house sign that can blow in the wind, fabric that can get caught up in the draughts. Maybe the only aspect that might need spinning though, could be the house - if Dor'thy's house is a full unit on a truck, then that could be spun by crew and if you can work it safe enough, maybe do it with D on the porch.(I once saw one spinning truck (Not Wiz of Oz tho) that used a large pulley wheel under the truck with rope wrapped round it - the truck had static anchor points, and the crew pulled the line out so it spun in position). And then, of course, the actors have to ACT the fact that they're in a huge storm!! (Not always the easiest bit!!) TD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_stemson Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Ever thought about using a Mirrorball to create your effect. Personally I'm not too keen on using Pin spots, I prefer using the crystal white light from a Moving Head or HMI (provides a more flat light reflection from the mirrors, than a Pin Spot filament). Never seen or used a HMI but don't melt your mirrorball!!!!!!!!Use haze or smoke to add depth, if you don't like the reflections ALL around your scenic set, just black tac the mirrors. If you do have moving lights to hand, then experiment with the strobe functions with the mirrorball and see what effect it gives. Just thought, Put the mirrorball on a tab track! Move it across the stage, from stage right to left! Can use a moving light and a very accurate flyman to move the Mball in time, or just make a base plate that attaches to the tab track, with the mirrorball and a Lighting unit upon it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GridGirl Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 We used four cloud effect wheels to simulate spinning clouds - they took serious focus time but we eventually got it right! Plus the house truck was built on a "rocker" so that when support blocks were yanked out the truck could be rocked from side to side on its base. The two crew behind it who were rocking it were also pushing it up and downstage at the same time. We also flew a little old lady in a rocking chair, followed by a guy who was walking as if on the ground, and then the Wicked Witch of the West (one after the other on the one flying track!) - it was a completely manic flying sequence, as the DSM I don't think I'd ever been so worried about a sequence in my life! But it was awesome :) As a side note, if you're planning to fly Glinda in a bubble, Foys have (or at least had) one which we used :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the kid Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 What about as well as/if not possible to use people, a cow/bath/general rubbish. What about a video of one (or the suggestion of one) on a gauze and behind it a black, so you can do a change, once again depends on designer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T*ny Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 We had an actor run across stage (while spinning) with a length of fishing line which was then used to drag "tumbleweeds" across behind him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 If its a big show with a big budget then whats wrong with a proper twister on stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floyd99 Posted July 2, 2006 Author Share Posted July 2, 2006 Thanks heaps for all the excellent ideas. Ynot's ideas are along the lines of what I began thinking about whist desperately trying to get to sleep last night. I plan on having some vertical truss for side light so that's do-able. The set ideas (either a rotating truck or rocking truck) should be possible, I'll certainly mention those to the designers. I like the idea of fishing line/tumbleweed too - very novel! Thanks heaps again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lightnix Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Some nice ideas coming through, of which Ynot's echo many of my own, but first... In the end, it's down to the director what the scene looks like (obvious, but easy to forget sometimes :D ) This question closely relates to one of my favourite hobby horses: The Suspension of Disbelief :) While Lighting undoubtedly has an important part to play in this scene, it is only a part of a total effect and should not try to dominate. You don't have to simulate any idea of spinning, as many people tend to - this is a mistake, though maybe an understandable one... around a twister, and all but the actual centre is most likely going to be high speed wind travelling in one direction.Very true. Look at the twister scene in the original film version. To begin with, Dorothy is inside the house and only observes the twister through the window; it looks like lots of clouds being blown in one direction. I'd suggest using this visual idea as a backdrop and achieve it with as many cloud wheel effects as affordable / riggable, focused as wide and as on top of each other as possible, all over the cyc and all running at around full speed. The apparent speed of the effect could be increased by running a few of the wheels "backwards", against the "main drag"; this can also increase the disorienting effect of a maelstrom. ...personally I'd go for some high powered fans blowing copious amounts of smoke... with some side light behind... vary the speed of the fans... Handfuls of straw thrown into the wind,...Agree with the vari-speed fans and the sidelight, but not sure about "copious" amounts of smoke; it will just build up and may not clear in time for the next scene. I'd go for frequent puffs, both up and downstage, to add depth and dimension. One thought that comes to mind is that if the fans aren't strong enough, then any debris might end up being blown only half way across the stage, which will look a bit pants. As Ynot suggests, there may be an eye hazard with straw - maybe shredded and stained light material (like organza) could account for some of it; maybe a few tumbleweeds could be bowled across the stage (sorry if this is getting away from lighting) and trucks winched across. If "carry" proved to be a problem, I might consider putting fans on both sides, so that stuff was just generally blown about (having been introduced from one side). Just remember that whatever gets used will have to be swept up at some point. Not too sure about strobes/dataflashes...Strobes and flashes could contribute if used sparingly and randomly, a bit like in the final scenes of Alien, but not so heavy. A "pseudo strobe" effect can be produced by loading up some movers with (vertical) stripe gobos and panning them across the audience; it doesn't have to be very fast or often - less is more here. You might also have a couple of practicals on the set (table lamps, etc.), which can also be randomly flashed and flickered and contribute to the overall effect. You could even hide practicals under the bed and in the furniture, like Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Just make sure you have those warning signs up FOH and in the programmes and publicity :D Keep the main stage illumination neutral and maybe patchy..."Err on the side of darkness", is an old phrase that springs to mind here. Maybe make the main source(s) of light from the side / top / behind / somewhere between and use a perch spot in the flys to pick out Dorothy; keep the FOH low. What I might also do (as there appears to be a bit of space and budget here) is design a couple of concentric circles of Pars into the rig, focussed down and chase them in opposite directions and at different speeds, while varying the intensity of each chase from a submaster or two and (again) keeping it quite low level - this would be the hopefully produce some kind of "rotational" effect. Just for "belt-and-braces", I would focus a rotating, raggedy, slightly defocussed, spirally gobo or three straight down onto the centre of the stage. Scenery manipulation can help - a house sign that can blow in the wind, fabric that can get caught up in the draughts......like curtains, say. Maybe install fans behind windows to blow the curtains and highlight them with some cunningly-hidden birdies? An interesting thread :) Do please let us know what you went for in the end and how it came out. Edit: One other idea: if you are using the cyc, then maybe a few movers could be used to project some tumbling objects or people across the back, or some of the weird faces that leer out of the clouds, again like in the film (IIRC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floyd99 Posted July 2, 2006 Author Share Posted July 2, 2006 cheers Lightnix.I agree -- the actual practical of smoke and debris could be interesting... how it actually behaves will be an unknown until we actually try it! But yes, lots of smoke would be bad.Having a meeting during the week with the director, so I'll find out more then. Only just getting ideas at present, the show isn't until next year and is just starting casting, so got some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 I'd suggest using this visual idea as a backdrop and achieve it with as many cloud wheel effects as affordable / riggable, focused as wide and as on top of each other as possible, all over the cyc and all running at around full speed. The apparent speed of the effect could be increased by running a few of the wheels "backwards", against the "main drag"; this can also increase the disorienting effect of a maelstrom. Quite. I did think of cloud wheels, then missed actually writing about them! They had been mentioned earlier, and I was going to say that it's best to look at storm cloud effects wheels, of course, rather than the stock fleecy variety. I like the idea of running one or more 'against the flow' - something that I'd not considered....personally I'd go for some high powered fans blowing copious amounts of smoke... with some side light behind... vary the speed of the fans... Handfuls of straw thrown into the wind,...Agree with the vari-speed fans and the sidelight, but not sure about "copious" amounts of smoke; Sorry - when I say 'copious' I meant more than I'd normally put onto stage (which isn't a lot - I hate smoke filled stages!) - But Nick is right - probably little & often would be better. Not too sure about strobes/dataflashes...Strobes and flashes could contribute if used sparingly and randomly, Thought a bit more about the strobe ideas... Found myself thinking back to films such as twister - is there lightning present during such phenomena. Concluded that yes, there probably is, so there MAY be a use for strobes in that arena. My favourite way to use strobes for lightning is to feed the audio from a decent clap of thunder into a 4-way strobe controller - link to 3 strobes (leave one channel empty) around the stage (Nothing FOH). Play that effect in low light and it can be stunning. Of course, that's likely to start the age-old argument over the natural delays between lightning & thunder....! :)Keep the main stage illumination neutral and maybe patchy..."Err on the side of darkness", is an old phrase that springs to mind here. Maybe make the main source(s) of light from the side / top / behind / somewhere between and use a perch spot in the flys to pick out Dorothy; keep the FOH low. Couldn't agree more with that one.Scenery manipulation can help - a house sign that can blow in the wind, fabric that can get caught up in the draughts......like curtains, say. Maybe install fans behind windows to blow the curtains and highlight them with some cunningly-hidden birdies? Exactly the sort of thing I was thinking on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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