Concert Recording

[DSA]

Hi again,

 

We have a school concert which I would like to record on Friday.

 

I dont need a 'top quality' recording on the mixing side - by this I mean that as I am performing in the concert myself, I want to set the mics and mixer up, press record, and leave it until the end of the concert.

 

I have a fair amount of kit to play with, and will be recording to MD.

 

I have (mics wise):

 

2 x beyer Opus 83

2 x AKG C414 B-ULS

3 x Sennheiser e855

1 x AKG D112

2 x Shure SM58

 

First of all, where should I place my mics for best pickup?

 

There will be a wide range of items - including full orchestra, piano quartet, choir (+band), small vocal group, jazz band, solos etc. etc. (just like any old school concert)

 

I would just put it into our seck 12 channel desk - do you suggest as a group? or an aux? (or something else - I suppose I could use the master as that is not being used for the PA on this occasion).

 

Alternatively I could use the Music dept.'s new Yamaha AW4416 - but I have no experience with it and as I said before, I wish to leave it to just record!!

 

If there is an easy way of setting up the AW4416 which can be 'mixed' later, please tell me and I will set it up, but the manual is a bit thick and I haven't time to read it all before Friday!!!!

 

Last time I recorded something I set it into a group, with the group O/Ps going directly into the MD. I pressed solo on the group channels to hear in my headphones, so as to set the levels, but when I played it back the mix was awful - like drums too loud etc. Any ideas why this happened? What did I do wrong? I think it was because I had the headphones in the 'headphone' socket, and not the 'monitor', but surely this should be the same????????

 

So to recap, I would like a nice recording - doesn't need to be like the BBC for broadcast, but I want a nice (and fairly) consistent level, which I can happily listen to (and maybe produce CDs from).

 

Thanks for your help (I know its a bit of a long post!)

 

David

[Brian]

set the mics and mixer up, press record, and leave it until the end of the concert

There will be a wide range of items

I want a nice (and fairly) consistent level

I'm afraid that all of these are mutually exclusive. The only way to get a reasonable result is to either have someone on the mixer doing a balance as things go along or to record the whole lot on a multitrack and then sort it out in the mix later. Even if you go the multitrack route I'd still get someone to baby-sit it so at least the level going down are not too loud or too quiet.

 

If you could use the AW4416 at least you could record up to 16 track at once and sort it out later.

 

the manual is a bit thick

apparently the unit is shipped with a demo 'quick start' video, maybe that will get you started.

[James]

What type of concert is this?

 

As you don't say I'm going to make broad suggestions here.

 

By all means play with the AW4416 but don't rely on it and test it out first so you know what you are doing with it.

 

I would rig the 2 414's as a stereo pair in a L/R configuration dividing the stage in thirds.

 

I would then use the other mics for inderviduals that look like they could do with the clarity of a personal mic. ie soloists and sections that might get lost in the overall mix. I wouldn't mix mics here - as in if there is a singer with 3 backing singers I would make sure all the backing singers are on the same mics ie - the e855's rather with the soloist on a 58.

 

I would route each mic to a seperate group on your seck desk and feed these to the first 8 inputs on the AW4416. I would also send the two 414's to the L and R inputs of the MD. Therefore if the AW4416 doesn't work out then you still have an ambiant room mix that should be OK.

 

Then you can have fun with the multitrack if it all works out.

 

Good Luck - Make sure you have enough headroom on the recorder ch's - unlike analouge distortion digital distortion sounds realy bad and if you can't babysit err on the side of caution and cut an extra 6dB just to be on the safe side - you shouldn't notice the reduction in noise floor but you will notice if one of your soloists maxes out in the big chorus.

 

Good Luck and do try everything out in advance - make sure you have enough cable and adapters before the event - there is nothing like being torn between finding or making an an adapter whilst you are in the middle of trying to perform...

 

James

[DSA]

Well its a general school mixed bag sort of concert with selections as I indicated. I would like really just a stereo pair to pick up generally, for ease!

 

Maybe the pianos need closer micing, but I think an ambience pair would be all that would be needed. I was thinking the beyers, or the akgs. what distance from the action? Last time they were about 15m away and it was too quiet (and at full gain!) - but I didnt have time to move them!

 

Anyone got any idea how to work the 4416 simply?????

 

Please, please

 

I dont own it, so I dont know where that video has got to!!!

 

If I do it on that with say 4 mics, does it mean that I can mix it 'after' the event?

 

David

[DSA]

I would rig the 2 414's as a stereo pair in a L/R configuration dividing the stage in thirds.

 

???

 

How is this done.

 

In the past I have just aligned the mics at the centre of the stage and crossed over the stands, with an angle between the mics about 60 degrees.

 

I read somewhere that they should be 120 deg. , but it makes the mics point away from the action, so surely they wont pick up as well??????

 

David

[James]

Now I am not an expert on recording techniques but what you discribe sounds like miking up in xy where both mics occupy the same 'theoretical' physical space as far as possible and one points one way and the other the other

 

In order to increase gain to each mic I was suggesting placing each mic across the front of the performance area spaced out

 

asci art:

 

--------X--------X--------

 

so that they can be closer to the source and therefore more signal to the mics.

 

Again I will re-iterate what Brian said and repeat that it is much better to monitor the recording whilst it is going - but if you can't do include at least an extra 6dB of headroom just to be safe.

[DSA]

Sorry to be pedantic, but....

 

How far roughly should the 414s be from the source (to act as a general stereo pair)

 

Secondly, to record the pianos using the opus 83s, where should they be best placed??

 

I think I will try out the 4416 via the group outputs on the 'normal' desk.

 

David

 

P.S. To avoid mic stands in the middle of the hall, it would be nice to 'fly' the mics from one lx bar to another. How do I attach the 414s to a rope, or would you not reccomend this. (I cant find a wire).

[James]

Try the same distance from the source as they are from each other when they are spaced apart.

 

Be prepared to move them if they sound better elsewhere.

 

There is no rule on mic placing - put your personal audio frequency and intensity examiners* where you think the mic should be and move them around 'til you find an even balanced soundscape - ie if the piano sl is dominating and hiding the flutes then move the mic towards the flutes-

 

as for piano - I have found micing too closely "can" give a too 'mechanical' sound - too much hammer/pedal - have a look at the pickup patern for the mic and aim it to pick up more evenly across what is a wide area - there are many many many ways of doing pianos - try a google search on rec.audio.pro for a few hundread sugestions.

 

rec.audio.pro

 

James

 

*ears!

[DSA]

ok, lastly which pick-up pattern should I use on the 414s for the general mix?

[James]

Cardiod

 

(1st on the left)

[DSA]

Hi,

 

Well I thought that you might like to know how I got on......

 

Firstly can I say what a great desk the AW4416 is. It seems to do anything you could possibly want (for a recording), and I found it really quite easy to use, with no previous experience of it.

 

I read the manual thurs night, and come friday morning I could record my tracks!

 

So what did I do with the mics... After trying the C414s in front of the action, the director was unhappy as they 'got in the way' and 'did not look professional'. I tried to explain that if I were recording for the bbc..............

 

Anyawy, I put the 414s at the front of the stage just behind the performance area, and also had a stereo pair of the beyer opus 83's on the balcony pointing downwards (about 13m away). As suggested, I routed them to the analogue mixer and sent them via groups to the AW4416. 2 radio mics used FOH were also inputted into the Multitracker via Auxes.

 

Recording the concert proved to be quite simple, using the 'Quick Record' function for ease. I am aware that now at the mixdown stage I can mix each track to my liking onto the stereo track, which is nice.

 

It would be nice to master it onto CD to sell, with profits going back to the charity that the concert was in aid of. Currently the 'song' is 2 hrs long (inc. breaks between items). When it comes to mastering how do I seperate the tracks, so that the concert will run like a normal CD (i.e. each item is a new track)?? Do I need to separate the big 'song' up into lots of separate songs? How is this done?

 

Also do you suggest that I add any reverb? Or just leave it 'dry'?

 

Thanks for all your help (I really do appreciate it!)

David

[Brian]

Hi David

 

glad it went well. In no particular order...

 

Reverb - I suggest you make this decision on a track by track basis. Have a listen and see what works. My experience is that things recorded live with mics at a distance to the subject tend not to need much reverb added. It's only when you close mic or record in a studio that you need to add something.

 

The CD - remember that you can't get 2 hours onto a single CD, the max is usually around 74 minutes so either it will have to be a double-CD set or you'll need to edit it down.

 

Tracks - you have two choices, either you can make a continuous mix and just 'mark' where each track starts or you can chop the whole show up into seperate tracks with a fade-out on each one. The choice is yours. How you actually do this will depend on what you mix down on and master on. The 4416 has mastering built in - I guess it's time to dig out the manual again.

[DSA]

I expect the length will be OK (with a bit of luck), as I had to start the recording early (as I was performing), and there is a fair amount of 'scene changes' in the actual recording.

 

Yes there is a feature to mark a point in the recording, but I dont know if these 'transfer' across when mastering the CD.

 

Perhaps someone else does??????

 

I dont think that the manual was all too clear on this, as it is aimed towards the studio - 1 song on an album sort of thing - i.e. not for recording 20 songs to be split up later.....

 

David

[Matt]

all you need to do is load the recording into a editing prodgram, I personally use cool edit pro 2, then cut parts out that I dont want, then save.

 

as for splitting the track, I just have 2 instances of CEP2 open, and copy/cut(whichever you prefer, copy is best) then paste into another and save it as either wav or mp3, obviously former is better.

 

hope that helps.

 

Matt.

[DSA]

Thanks, but I was hoping to do it all on the AW4416 for a few reasons:

 

1. As I wanted to get to know the features of the desk, and how to work them eg mastering and editing and inserting effects etc.

 

2. There is no computer in the lighting box or recording studio

 

3. I dont have any of that sort of software

 

4. I dont know how to connect the computer up and export the song (if I had one)

 

Thanks,

David

 

PS I dont think that my laptop will quite be up to the job with its on-board sound.