Behringer LC2412 problem

[Dale]

This is why I don't use cheap desks anymore. I use Sunlite instead.

[DavidLee]

Did they say which version this new eprom was?

Unfortunately they didn't. However I did emphasise that my console does have version 01.06.01, which I believe is the most recent release version, so hopefully this will mean that they have produced a new fix. I'll let you know when I get it.

 

I also pointed out another bug, which means that you can't insert a step into a memory chase, so with a bit of luck they may have fixed that too.

 

David

[Neil Hampson]

I have experienced similar problems with my LD2412, I have no idea what firmware revision my desk is on but a few other people who bought the desk at the same time seemed to get similar problems.

I reported the bug but got no support from Behringer at the time. Other faults are problems programming memory no.9 on page 0 (the desk has always refused to record a memory, other pages work fine).

I now only use it for preset only jobs. I've gone back to my 'Trusted' Sirius24 for most work.

[DavidLee]

The saga continues!

 

Behringer have now realised that I already have the latest firmware and are suggesting that I should return the console for replacement. It beats me why they can't just follow my very simple instructions and confirm whether or not one of their units behaves in the same way! Fortunately Blue Aran have said that they will check out a console before we start playing postal tennis with lighting consoles but it could be a while before they have any new stock!

 

However so far in this thread we seem to have reports of eight LC2412s with the same problem!

 

David

[amillar]

I got a reply from Behringer this morning ... not sure it helps much.

 

-----

what our specialists say:

 

This is probably the result of an earlier bugfix. We'll pass it on to our software team.

 

If this is a problem then continue with the old version....

 

We hope that we have been able to help you with this information.

 

Best regards,

 

Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team

-------

 

looks like I'll just have to stick with v1.00 - shame I wasted my money on the EPROMs.

 

Andrew

[DavidLee]

I got a reply from Behringer this morning ... not sure it helps much.

I also received a reply from Behringer, last Friday, which seems to suggest that they haven't bothered to read my notes with any degree of care!:

 

"we took this to our R&D, and unfortunately were told that this compromise between "speed"

and "accuracy" of the fader response is unavoidable.

So the best would be to get back to Blue Aran and ask for a refund on the console.

 

We hope that we have been able to help you with this information.

 

Best regards,

 

Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team"

 

This reply doesn't appear to correspond to my issue at all - although I do know that someone else has been complaining about accuracy of the fader response, so they may have got mixed up.

 

I have repeated my description of the fault to Behringer and suggested to them that they send me an EPROM containing the original software version. As yet no further reply. I have to say that at the moment Behringer are simply confirming all the warnings that I was given before buying their lighting console - that their stuff is invariably cheap and nasty and I would regret it. I'm sure that this isn't really the basis of their marketing policy!

 

David

 

 

Just had a response from Blue Aran as well to confirm that they have replicated exactly the same problems on an LC2412 console. They have offered me a full refund but I would very much prefer Behringer to fix the problem. I've taken Bruce's advice and sent an email to Andy Cullen, in the hope that he may be able to come back with a more authoritative response from Behringer.

 

I'll let you know...

 

David

[ArieGroen]

Hi all,

 

Just recently I purchased a B-stock LC2412. Same problem as described above.

I logged a call on Behringer.com but had to call them a week later since no-one replied.

The answer was very simple..... "known problem but we're not gonna fix it, please try another one at your dealer" ???!!!!?!

Well, I tried 7 new LC2412's but all the same problem. (fw: 1.06.01).

My guess is they are dumping their last LC2412's and will come with a followup soon.

 

Now, 3 weeks later.... the emailed me that they send me an Eprom with other firmware. I asked them which version....

guess what: 1.03.05 !!

 

Does anyone know which bugs were in this version ??

 

regards,

Arie

the Netherlands

[DavidLee]

Just recently I purchased a B-stock LC2412. Same problem as described above.

I logged a call on Behringer.com but had to call them a week later since no-one replied.

The answer was very simple..... "known problem but we're not gonna fix it, please try another one at your dealer" ???!!!!?!

Well, I tried 7 new LC2412's but all the same problem. (fw: 1.06.01).

My guess is they are dumping their last LC2412's and will come with a followup soon.

 

Now, 3 weeks later.... the emailed me that they send me an Eprom with other firmware. I asked them which version....

guess what: 1.03.05 !!

 

Does anyone know which bugs were in this version ??

Non-changeable patching of the two independent channels and jittery fader output according to Andy Cullen of Behringer. He reproduced the problem that we are reporting and believed that it is caused by the way that they are averaging the DMX output of the faders to reduce the jitter that people using scrollers etc have been complaining about - in which case they have to decide which of the two problems was the less serious, since only one would be fixable. However I have just tried the 1.3.5 firmware and the problem is still there, so it looks like he may have been mistaken - Andy Millar has previously reported that the problem was not evident in the original 1.0.0 firmware so it seems to be due to a much earlier bug fix.

 

However there is a workaround - the problem only occurs when you bring up memories via the B faders and B master. It does not happen if you use the chase fader (ie using the Insert Key) either by hitting the flash buttons to crossfade automatically under timer control or else manually. The procedures for doing this are clearly described in the manual and an added advantage is that crossfades using either of these methods are dipless.

 

I'll send Andy Cullen a reply as soon as I can properly document the behavious of v1.3.5 firmware.

 

David

[dravenzouk]

So, I just bought an LC2412, ran into this same problem, and googled around til I found this old thread. Question is, has anyone come up with a satisfactoy fix for this problem since last February (date of the last post)? The dealer I bought it from (online) says it has the "latest software, updates, etc." and the unit was new in the box. I checked and the version is 01.06.01 from 2003. Is this truly the latest? Has Behringer come out with anything newer (that works)?

 

If there has been no fix, can anyone suggest another board that isn't too pricey? My needs are pretty basic: running 30-plus Par cans on about 16 DMX channels, running a few Colorsplash 196 LED's that eat up 7 DMX channels (that I have ganged up onto 3 console channels), running DMX strobes that take two channels, want to be able to save a decent amount of scenes (24-plus) and chases (36-plus), I like (but don't NEED) that the Behringer has a "step" button that is foot switchable and that it has a 3-band sound-to-light function, I also really like the back-up capability via the PCMCIA card, but the real biggie is this: I NEED to be able to control steps, start/stop chases, blackout, recall memories, etc. via a footpedal. Currently I do this with FCB1010 Midi footboard. This sends midi NOTES rather than midi program changes (which is the key to making it work). So the replacement board needs to be able to do these things via midi note input. I'd prefer a "conventional" dimming style console as opposed to the new fangled toggle switchie dealies. I'm not running any moving lights/scanners/gobo-changers/spin'n'pukes/etc. nor do I plan to in the future.

 

I'd much rather just have my LC2412 work right so if anyone has one that doesn't have the problem discussed in this thread, or they know how to fix the situation, please let me know. Thanks, d.

 

PS: by the who, I know this is a UK forum, but I'm from the US if that has any bearing on your suggestions.

[Tomo]

ETC Smartfade is one option - Note On/Note Off commands are interpreted as memory bump button keypresses.

Note 0 is Mem 1, Note 47 is Mem 48.

[dravenzouk]

Tomo, thanks for the suggestion. The Smartfade looks very nice but it's WAY over my budget - $1400!! By comparison, I paid about $150 for the LC2412. I know "getting what you paid for", but really, it seems like there should be something that does what the LC2412 does (or should do) without spending 10 times the cash. I'm willing to spend more than I did for the Behringer of course, but I'm still pretty low-budget and the ETC stuff is a bit rich for me. thanks, d.

[DavidLee]

So, I just bought an LC2412, ran into this same problem, and googled around til I found this old thread. Question is, has anyone come up with a satisfactoy fix for this problem since last February (date of the last post)? The dealer I bought it from (online) says it has the "latest software, updates, etc." and the unit was new in the box. I checked and the version is 01.06.01 from 2003. Is this truly the latest? Has Behringer come out with anything newer (that works)?

I'm the original poster and coincidentally the LC2412 has just come back to haunt me - I handed it over to the end users back in February but have just been roped in to design and run the lighting for their latest production - so I have been rudely reminded of this little horror!

 

I've checked on the Behringer website and the latest firmware release is still ver 1.06, so you do have the latest update. The behaviour we are experiencing is a side effect of averaging that they have applied to smooth out instability on the DMX output, which had led to complaints about "wobble" on scanners and gobos from users of moving lights. This "fix" is obviously a real "dog's breakfast" and could easily have been engineered without this annoying side-effect. I've just sent an email to Andy Cullen about it, offering my suggestions for a firmware fix, and I'll come back and post any informnation I get in reply.

 

David

[dravenzouk]

Well I just got off the phone with Behringer customer support (in the US). The tech guy there had not heard of this problem but he dug and asked around and found that, yes, there were issues reported like this in Europe. He dug some more and came up with this response from their R&D folks:

 

__________________________

 

Below is a note from our engineers on this issue.

 

 

I apologise for the delay in providing a full answer - we wanted to double-check a couple of practical issues here first. (please feel free to copy / post any of this - I've tried to keep it as "short as possible" and not get too technical, although to get a better grasp of the issue, some background is essential)

 

We have been able to reproduce the phenomenon which you (and a handful other users) have reported.

 

There are only 2 changes between V1.03.05 (up to approx. April 2004) and V1.06.01 (current production) :

 

1) In V1.03.05 - the "special keys" were fixed to DMX channels 25 & 26 - this was a recognised "bug", but for many applications it is either not relevant, or at least, not a serious practical issue.

The work-around is not particularly "difficult" and this has nothing to do with the problem in hand.

 

2) Up to and including V1.03.05 we had been receiving regular user complaints about "wobbly scanners" and "jumpy gobos" etc.

This has also been the subject of various discussions on the web, and although the LC2412 was not primarily intended for "intelligent" lighting apps, it was decided that this is not what our customers want, and our software engineers set about making an improvement. The result is incorporated in V1.06.01 - which is the current production version.

 

Without getting into too much depth, the crux of the issue is "noise". If you are working with audio equipment and you have a problem with hum or noise in the system, then you will know about it straight away.

This is not necessarily true for lighting applications, but it's never a good idea to run "audio" and "lighting" equipment from the same phase or ring main (if it can be at all avoided).

I think most people are aware that triac-operated dimmer packs are "not the cleanest" of consumers, not to mention certain types of luminary, and ground loops are certainly not uncommon in lighting situations. So the typical operating environment of the LC2412 is seldom what you could call ideal.

 

Our engineers have taken great care to design and construct the LC2412 in such a way that these factors are reduced to an absolute minimum. The casing is all steel, the digital and analog circuitry are earthed separately, the DC power rails are all stabilised and filtered. However, it still relies to a certain extent on the condition of the mains supply.

 

The instantaneous DMX value is derived from a dc voltage, which itself is determined by the fader position. The dc voltage is referenced between +5Vdc and earth, and is sampled at regular intervals by the CPU (hundreds of times per second). However, these instantaneous values are subject to "fluctuations", most notably if the 0V (earth) is not particularly "clean".

 

So, our engineers have incorporated a "denoiser" algorithm - to stabilise the output DMX values and eliminate the unwanted side effects. This "denoiser" algorithm takes a range of sampled instantaneous values over a period of time, and calculates a "weighted" dynamic average for the DMX output. To satisfy the demands of the "wobbly scanner" clients, we had to make some adjustments to the sensitivity of this algorithm.

 

If this algorithm is "too fast" - then "accuracy" is sacrificed - which can lead to "wobbly scanners" and "jumpy gobos" etc.

 

If the algorithm is "too accurate" then it sacrifices "speed" - which isn't usually a problem since reaction to extremely rapid changes in intensity will ultimately be damped by hysteresis in the filament. The flipside is that a longer time is needed for the "stabilised" DMX value to reach the target value.

 

This is a greatly simplified "static" illustration :

0,0,0,2,0,1,0,1,3,0

Ten values - average "0" but subject to some "noise". Please note : DMX512 only allows positive integer values. Consider this as an example of a series of "sampled values", representative of a fader at its minimum position. The numerical average of this series is not zero, and in this case it is above 0,5 so it will be given as a value of 1.

 

This doesn't make a big difference on a preset channel fader. But if this happens to be on a memory fader, and certain channels in that particular memory were programmed at "full tilt" - then the described "trade-off" can result in a residual DMX value at the output - even though the memory fader is in its zero position. If you have programmed 12 memories, then the chances of a residual DMX value on the "B-Group" fader will be increased significantly. It is made even worse by other factors, eg. logarithmic channel response at the dimmer, use of preheat, and the presence of "noise" and "hum" on the mains supply.

You can try using an "exponential" curve on the dimmer, depending on the capabilities of the dimmer pack (our LD6230 offers this option). There are other measures which can be taken to alleviate system "noise", such as supply-line filters upstream of the dimmer packs, or optical DMX splitters to break ground loops, etc etc. but these also implicate "cost" and for this reason are not always to hand. This is probably why you have observed different results with different dimmer packs.

 

It seems that the vast majority of LC2412 customers are happy with the current version of the LC2412 firmware, and this model is a consitently good performer across the board. We sell thousands of these each month - and since V1.06.01 was implemented, we have only received a handful of complaints about this.

 

As we said before - it is the result of a compromise between the speed and the accuracy of the "denoiser" algorithm, and this is subject to physical limitations as described. This algorithm is part of the basic functionality of the unit and it is not possible to offer the user a "choice" of sensitivity (if it were possible, I'm sure we would have done it) - so we are forced to find a "happy medium".

 

In previous versions of the firmware, this problem is not as evident as it is in V1.06.01 - Of course - the older version is subject to the descirbed "bug" and is less suitable for use with scanners, colour changers etc.

We have advised our R&D about this matter, and at least we can provide you with an interim solution - one which we feel you will be happy with.

 

 

We hope that we have been able to help you with this information.

 

Best regards,

 

Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team

 

_________________________________

 

Basically, they are saying that they can't really do anything about the problem and that the unit is working within specs. Faulty/bad/noisy power seems to be the real culprit and supposedly using a power conditioner would help - but of course that's costly. You could cross your fingers and hope that you get clean power in all the nasty, scummy clubs that you play (yeah right). Using Behringer's own dimmer packs would help as with those you could alter the "exponential curve" on the packs themselves, but again that would be a costly fix. The other solution would be to put in the older version of the the software/eprom, which apparantly had less of a problem with this issue. Behringer does not have any more of the older version (V01.03.05 April 2004) but they did give me a link to a place that can possibly supply them for around $10. They are Swell Sound Electronics and the link is here: http://mysite.verizon.net/resoamqr/swellso...nics/index.html. Using the older version would mean buggy problems with some intelligents/scanners/movinglights/etc. but I'm not running any of those so that shouldn't be a big deal.

 

So, I'm going to experiment with some of these "solutions" and report back to this thread if I come up with anything satisfactory. Or maybe I'll dump this thing and go with something else. Seems I'm going to have to spend money either way.

 

thanks, d.

[Alan_Mayne]

Does anyone have the Version 1.03.05 firmware for the LC2412 that they could let me have please? I bought a new LC2412 two months ago to drive par cans and some Strand Profiles. Behringer haven't been too helpful so far - just offering me links to service agents who can only offer the latest V1.06 firmware - which I already have. Thanks.

[schoollighting]

OK,

 

I'm a new member from the states and probably made a mistake buying this board on Ebay for $150, but ya get what ya pay for and that's all our grammer school could afford.

 

I signed up to this forum to ask; has anyone gotten anywhere with using Opto Isolators on the DMX run like Behringer suggested. Did it clear up the ZERO AVG. problem?