safety chains Vs saftey wires.

[Kristian]

At what point does the new legislation regarding rated saftey bonds to fixtures come into force?

IE: using saftey wires, rather than rusty old saftey chains?

I believe these then have to be checked and re-certified anually. (LOLER).

 

Further to this subject, can anyone shed any light (haha.....) onto what weight of instrument should have what sized bond?

 

I am all to clued in, that different councils have different rules, but it would be nice to have a rule of thumb to work by....

 

I am also led to believe that any lamp weighing less than 400g does not require a saftey. (birdies eg.)

 

If anybody can help me on this, it would be much appreciated.

 

Kristian.

[Chris Higgs]

As far as I know there is no, repeat NO, legislation that says any such thing.

 

There are British Standards and codes of practice (such as that produced by ABTT) that require use of steel wire rope and connectors of sufficient strength, but this is not law, simply considered to be best practice by leading exponents.

 

In a court, you may be measured against best practice, but a safety bond that will work is the most important thing.

The weight issue is also irrelevant as far as I know.

 

Where do these rumours start?

[the kid]

If I'm not much mistaken there are several topics on "chains and wires" that have the answer in essence when sifted through.

[Kristian]

As far as I know there is no, repeat NO, legislation that says any such thing.

 

There are British Standards and codes of practice (such as that produced by ABTT) that require use of steel wire rope and connectors of sufficient strength, but this is not law, simply considered to be best practice by leading exponents.

 

In a court, you may be measured against best practice, but a safety bond that will work is the most important thing.

The weight issue is also irrelevant as far as I know.

 

Where do these rumours start?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris, the first I heard about this was Homelands, a couple of years ago.

(Winchester council.)

Then the guys at splicing and allied tipped me off that some local councils were insisting that safteys must be load rated, and chains were not allowed, hence saftey wires only.

Given the range of weights of lamps, from a B and Q flood, (pound of sugar!)

to Cybers and Golden scans, and Mac 2K's coming in at 50Kg's or more,

would be good to know your take on this.

We generally use common sense, but is this silly legislation from certain councils making life awkward?

Thanks for replying.

Kris.

[Chris Higgs]

Fair enough, and why not, it's a good thing to insist upon - but there's no legislation - something statutory you could be prosecuted for as being a 'criminal act', about it.

This as opposed to being something the venue control by way of licensing, i.e., you don't get the licence without satisfying the requirement.

I know that's picky, but as I'm always being told, we should exercise our rights a little, the nanny state and all that......

HTH

[Kristian]

Fair enough, and why not, it's a good thing to insist upon - but there's no legislation - something statutory you could be prosecuted for as being a 'criminal act', about it.

This as opposed to being something the venue control by way of licensing, i.e., you don't get the licence without satisfying the requirement.

I know that's picky, but as I'm always being told, we should exercise our rights a little, the nanny state and all that......

HTH

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris, while we are on the subject, I would be really interested to know your take on spannies verses steels.

The way I see it is that spansets are more flexible than a Steel, and are made up of a continuous Kevlar loop. If Kevlar is stong enough to protect the nose of the space shuttle on re-orbit, then why is it not acceptable as a primary hanging device in some council districts? (Camden and Westminster inparticular?)

Ali Crimps on some steels I have come across, Would not trust my worst enemy on the end of them, tested or not! (effects of different heat expansion of the two metals)

Bad enough crimping a safe electrical connection, let alone load bearing!

K. XX

 

You seem to know alot, penny for your thoughts...

Would appreciate the time and experience.

[Chris Higgs]

I know *** all, really. I just try to share what I pick up.

A 'Spanset' (more correctly a 'roundsling', unless made by Spanset Ltd. - think Hoover) is made of polyester. The blue label used denotes that.

Both steels and roundslings are perfectly safe to use in the correct applications.

Aluminium ferrules are used in many industries all over the world, and when made properly are around 85-90% as strong as the rope.

As roundslings, the safe working load is calculated on the weakest link.

Keep within the SWL, use in the right application, they'll be fine.

There may be an issue with sharp edges cutting roundslings in some circumstances that steel wire rope slings may be better resistant to, but even then, softening the edge is necessary to prevent the bending and cutting action of the steelwork or whatever on the slings.

The issue with polyester is often heat. Fire is the obvious reason, but pyro produces local heat, as might welding; hot luminaires may produce a similar effect over time when in close proximity in certain circumstances. Most roundsling manufacturers quote 85 -100 degrees C as a maximum operating temperature.

Steel wire ropes with steel cores will typically have a 100 degrees C maximum operating temperature.

Many venues require use of steels over roundslings for this reason.

 

Interestingly, welded aluminium fabrications (now, where might they be found?) may lose as much as 45% of their strength at 200 degrees C.

Makes you wonder sometimes......

[JCoster]

I read a while back (I think on the Blue Room), that you can leave lanterns you currently have with chains but any new lanterns bought must have bonds instead...

 

This may have just been for schools though and don't hold me to any of this in court!

[bright spark]

I read a while back (I think on the Blue Room), that you can leave lanterns you currently have with chains but any new lanterns bought must have bonds instead...

 

Interesting I heard the same thing...

 

As far as I know there is no, repeat NO, legislation that says any such thing.

 

I wonder how many companies have got rid of chains for wires...certainly two that I know of.

[JCoster]

As far as I know there is no, repeat NO, legislation that says any such thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm pretty sure that there is something... Possibly the issue arose after a chain failing somewhere? Maybe someone should just email Health and Safety Services or something?

[Kristian]

I know *** all, really. I just try to share what I pick up.

A 'Spanset' (more correctly a 'roundsling', unless made by Spanset Ltd. - think Hoover) is made of polyester. The blue label used denotes that.

Both steels and roundslings are perfectly safe to use in the correct applications.

Aluminium ferrules are used in many industries all over the world, and when made properly are around 85-90% as strong as the rope.

As roundslings, the safe working load is calculated on the weakest link.

Keep within the SWL, use in the right application, they'll be fine.

There may be an issue with sharp edges cutting roundslings in some circumstances that steel wire rope slings may be better resistant to, but even then, softening the edge is necessary to prevent the bending and cutting action of the steelwork or whatever on the slings.

The issue with polyester is often heat. Fire is the obvious reason, but pyro produces local heat, as might welding; hot luminaires may produce a similar effect over time when in close proximity in certain circumstances. Most roundsling manufacturers quote 85 -100 degrees C as a maximum operating temperature.

Steel wire ropes with steel cores will typically have a 100 degrees C maximum operating temperature.

Many venues require use of steels over roundslings for this reason.

 

Interestingly, welded aluminium fabrications (now, where might they be found?) may lose as much as 45% of their strength at 200 degrees C.

Makes you wonder sometimes......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris, thanks for the reply.

Will research this further.

The reason for my question is that I am sick and tired of turning up to gigs at six AM, and some idiot turning round and saying, Ohh, you can't use that!

I'll have a natter with the Star-rats boys, and Unusual rigging, and see what they have to say.

In the meantime, I will keep hanging Rigs the same way I have done for the past fifteen years!

 

Will keep you posted.

 

Kristian.

 

Ps: Spend six quid on a roundsling, (not a spanny, I did make that mistake, and got a braided nylon thing, more suited to crane operators..., and looked like a pile of rubbish) and disect it, and put a lighter to it....

I would trust this over any other method of hanging.

Within, you will find the afore-mentioned Kevlar loop.

;-)

K.

[strandgsx]

I know *** all, really. I just try to share what I pick up.

A 'Spanset' (more correctly a 'roundsling', unless made by Spanset Ltd. - think Hoover) is made of polyester. The blue label used denotes that.

Both steels and roundslings are perfectly safe to use in the correct applications.

Aluminium ferrules are used in many industries all over the world, and when made properly are around 85-90% as strong as the rope.

As roundslings, the safe working load is calculated on the weakest link.

Keep within the SWL, use in the right application, they'll be fine.

There may be an issue with sharp edges cutting roundslings in some circumstances that steel wire rope slings may be better resistant to, but even then, softening the edge is necessary to prevent the bending and cutting action of the steelwork or whatever on the slings.

The issue with polyester is often heat. Fire is the obvious reason, but pyro produces local heat, as might welding; hot luminaires may produce a similar effect over time when in close proximity in certain circumstances. Most roundsling manufacturers quote 85 -100 degrees C as a maximum operating temperature.

Steel wire ropes with steel cores will typically have a 100 degrees C maximum operating temperature.

Many venues require use of steels over roundslings for this reason.

 

Interestingly, welded aluminium fabrications (now, where might they be found?) may lose as much as 45% of their strength at 200 degrees C.

Makes you wonder sometimes......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris, thanks for the reply.

Will research this further.

The reason for my question is that I am sick and tired of turning up to gigs at six AM, and some idiot turning round and saying, Ohh, you can't use that!

I'll have a natter with the Star-rats boys, and Unusual rigging, and see what they have to say.

In the meantime, I will keep hanging Rigs the same way I have done for the past fifteen years!

 

Will keep you posted.

 

Kristian.

 

Ps: Spend six quid on a roundsling, (not a spanny, I did make that mistake, and got a braided nylon thing, more suited to crane operators..., and looked like a pile of rubbish) and disect it, and put a lighter to it....

I would trust this over any other method of hanging.

Within, you will find the afore-mentioned Kevlar loop.

;-)

K.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

 

As soon as I heard that there is a possibility of chains being chucked we replaced every chain in our hire stock with a bond at high expense...considering we have over 4000 generic lanterns.

 

I also heard that 15a plugs etc are going bye bye making way for all 16a, now that would be a pain.

 

Mark

[Ben Langfeld]

As soon as I heard that there is a possibility of chains being chucked we replaced every chain in our hire stock with a bond at high expense...considering we have over 4000 generic lanterns.

 

I also heard that 15a plugs etc are going bye bye making way for all 16a, now that would be a pain.

 

Mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I expect 15A plugs will still be in use for many years yet considering a lot of installations have only recently, or worse, still haven't moved from 5A -> 15A. I can't see 16A stuff becoming standard in Britain for a good 5 years at least.

[Bryson]

I know *** all, really. I just try to share what I pick up.

A 'Spanset' (more correctly a 'roundsling', unless made by Spanset Ltd. - think Hoover) is made of polyester. The blue label used denotes that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*snip*

 

Ps: Spend six quid on a roundsling, (not a spanny, I did make that mistake, and got a braided nylon thing, more suited to crane operators..., and looked like a pile of rubbish) and disect it, and put a lighter to it....

I would trust this over any other method of hanging.

Within, you will find the afore-mentioned Kevlar loop.

;-)

K.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kristian,

 

I suspect Chris is being too polite to correct you, but the fibres inside a roundsling are polyester, not Kevlar, just as Chris said.

 

I'm not saying he's always right (;)) but before you correct Chris about rigging, remember he literally wrote the book...

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/1904031129.02.MZZZZZZZ.jpghttp://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/1904031218.02.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Chris Higgs]

Too kind, and it's nice to hear someone say I'm too polite.

 

To reiterate the wire/chain bond business for lanterns business, there's no legislation I've heard of.

Standards, yes, best practice, yes, house policy, yes, possibly even licensing conditions (so nearly law, then - fair enough), but no statute law.

Only being pedantic.