Opera house ban moving of tallescope

[richard]

Hello

 

Just to bring up the whole tallescope thing again, just been doing some work in the linbury at the Opera House and apparently the powers that be have decided that no longer can the scope be moved with people in the basket. While this doesn't suprise me it does pose problems as they haven't yet got fully thought through plans for how to get around this - or worked out the extra time that is going to be involved.

 

The show today we were able to bounce focus, which was fine and we had a load of time but there tend to be some pretty big rigs in there.

 

Normal Geni lifts are not an option in there as they have already had one create a dent in the stage pine wooden floor, so they need to think some more.

 

Interestingly I have been told that this is mainly due to a theatre in Norwich being fined by the HSE purely for moving someone while in the basket of the scope, however I find this hard to believe and can find no record for it.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Richard

[gareth]

The only connection of which I'm aware between a theatre in Norwich and the HSE is that Will Hill from the Theatre Royal (in conjunction with Norwich city council) was going to apply for some sort of funding from the Health & Safety Commision in order to carry out a study into the whole process of moving an occupied 'scope. I believe he's also been talking to the HSE regarding 'scope use (including sending them some photos of the unit being used in a theatre situation, and also looking at actually sending them one to evaluate). Not sure whether anything came of that, though.

 

And of course, there's the infamous ABTT draft code of practice concerning 'scopes, which has been a draft for longer than I care to remember (and has now, by the looks of things, ceased to exist at all). I wonder if they'll ever get off their collective arses and do something useful like publish a final, authoritative version? I wouldn't hold my breath - search for the word "tallescope" on the ABTT website, and with the exception of two links to the FAQ (which says virtually nothing useful on the subject), every 'hit' is one of the "Theatres technical information" pages in which venues are simply saying "We've got a tallescope". Absolutely nothing of any use or substance to be found.

 

The only other venues that I'm aware of where there's a ban on movement of occupied 'scopes are Manchester Opera House and Oxford New Theatre (previously the Apollo). I haven't been to either of them for quite a few years, but in Oxford the ruling was applied in a fairly relaxed sort of way (as long as the iron was in and none of the 'suits' were likely to see what was going on, 'scope movement occured as usual) - whereas Manchester were incredibly anal about it (and boy, did it make for a loooong focus! :))

[mal421]

Don't ya just hate the H&S nazi's . Has anybody from the theatre just been on an H&S course recently ? One thing I remember from my course was an emphisis on 'never moving a MEWP whilst elevated and somebody in it '. My personal view is : Too many people use H&S as an easy option . 'Lets ban it rather than find a way to do it safely' .

 

Another 2p in the pot .

[Stu]

I too have recently heard about the plight which Norwich Theatre Royal are currently suffering with the HSE - from what I was told, they were caught moving a scope while it was occupied in a spot check by the HSE and as a result they, as a venue, are currently in process of having a case made against them. So from what I know, I don't think they have actually been fined yet.

 

As much as I dislike 'scopes, as long as your sensible it is safer to move the scope rather than have the poor guy up it come up and down every time he needs to move a couple of ft onto the the next lantern - tiredness will just result in the unacceptable situation of the tired focusser losing his/her footing while assending/desending the scope and falling.

 

The person who mentioned about what was going on at the Theatre Royal mentioned some of the ideas which people have had in order to make the scope safer - something to do with being able to attach a wider base to the scope (especially on one side so you can still run into cloths etc) to increase the size of the base and therefore obviously making it harder to tip - which is the biggest problem I've always had with the scope.

 

I think Will Hill is a member of BR, maybe we might hear something soon (from the horses mouth so to speak) - although I understand this might not be practical for legal reasons etc.

 

Stu

[david.elsbury]

FWIW, I have a question. If you fall on a regular ladder, you'll either fall straight off, or get a foot caught and hurt yourself badly, then fall some more... I presume.

 

But tallescopes (and some ladders) have a 'cage' around the ladder in order to stop you falling. What happens if you do lose your footing when on one? Do you fall in a horrible and nasty way, catching your feet?

 

Have there been any studies done on how people fall from ladders, etc?

[Grahame]

Tallescopes don't have a cage around the ladder - the cage is at the top of the ladder. The main fall danger is whilst climbing or descending the ladder. This risk is magnified if the operative is tired from having to descend and ascend the 'scope every few feet as it is moved. Actual falls from the cage are rare unless the operative is being foolhardy or the 'scope overbalances.

I would put myself in the camp that says it's safer to move the 'scope with the operative in the basket, providing the outriggers are deployed about an inch above the ground and there are at least two, preferably four trained people moving it around, and it is moved in a sensible manner across the stage and not sideways.

.

[andy_s]

attach a wider base to the scope (especially on one side so you can still run into cloths etc) to increase the size of the base and therefore obviously making it harder to tip - which is the biggest problem I've always had with the scope.

 

Stu

this is what the outriggers are for. they need to be touching the ground to be effective. You will nocitice two holes quite close to each other near the end of the outrigger; this is to enable you to lift the foot of the outrigger off the floor in order to move the 'scope. The outrigger does not provide protection from tipping if it is not touching the ground, and the manufacturers state quite explicitly that the 'scope shouldn't be moved with a person in the basket. Thier illustrations show the 'scope being used outdoors, on uneven ground; clearly it would be foolhardy to move someone in the basket in that environment.

 

I've moved people and been moved around in a scope, plenty of times, and I think that with proper caution and thought and in the right circumstances, this can be done safely. This would include: having sufficient staff at the bottom of the 'scope to guide it properly; limiting the amount of movement to a short distance; only employing this technique of moving people on level obstruction-free surfaces; control of tallescope work by an experienced and sensible person, etc. It would not include relying on the outriggers floating an inch above the floor to prevent tipping.

Otherwise, I'd agree with what Grahame says in his post.

 

to answer David's question about studies, the answer is yes, I've read documents and seen videos - but I don't have the reference to hand. I'll see if I can dig it out.

[dbuckley]

But tallescopes (and some ladders) have a 'cage' around the ladder in order to stop you falling. What happens if you do lose your footing when on one? Do you fall in a horrible and nasty way, catching your feet?

As stated, the ladder itself is exposed, but the base of a talle looks for all the world like a scaffold arrangement with sticky-up poles in the corners, and if you landed on either the base or the corner bits its gonna hurt lots as your either bend around the horizontal tubes or get poked with the corner bits.

 

Do we have talles in NZ? I've never seen one in the places I've been here... hateful bl**dy things...

[Ellis]

But tallescopes (and some ladders) have a 'cage' around the ladder in order to stop you falling. What happens if you do lose your footing when on one? Do you fall in a horrible and nasty way, catching your feet?

As stated, the ladder itself is exposed, but the base of a talle looks for all the world like a scaffold arrangement with sticky-up poles in the corners, and if you landed on either the base or the corner bits its gonna hurt lots as your either bend around the horizontal tubes or get poked with the corner bits.

 

Do we have talles in NZ? I've never seen one in the places I've been here... hateful bl**dy things...

They may be slightly unpleasant to use, but they are no worse than the alternatives. A-Frame extension ladders, while not vertical can be un-nerving when there is nothing below you. Genies and the like are heavy, require formal training ansd are inherently more dangerous if used incorrectly.

 

Unfortunately, the manufacturers are NEVER going to recommend moving with someone in the cradle, the HSE will always be anal about going against manufacturers instructions and the money is never going to be available to buy a MEWP and train everyone to use it! Sounds like many UK lighting crew will be fit-enough to run in the 2012 Olympic Marathon!

[Stu]

attach a wider base to the scope (especially on one side so you can still run into cloths etc) to increase the size of the base and therefore obviously making it harder to tip - which is the biggest problem I've always had with the scope.

 

Stu

this is what the outriggers are for. they need to be touching the ground to be effective. <snip>

I realise this, I was purely mentioning what I had been told - I didn't explain myself very well when I mentioned the bit about the extra 'base'. I'm not saying that any one idea that someone may have to improve safety of the scope is a good or bad thing, I'm just relaying what had been mentioned to me.

 

Stu

[trussmonkey]

But tallescopes (and some ladders) have a 'cage' around the ladder in order to stop you falling. What happens if you do lose your footing when on one? Do you fall in a horrible and nasty way, catching your feet?

 

Have there been any studies done on how people fall from ladders, etc?

 

try asking Lyon Equipment in Dent, Cumbria. They have done a big research project onto the fall arrest properties of caged ladders. It might be of some use.

 

TM

[andy_s]

I'm not saying that any one idea that someone may have to improve safety of the scope is a good or bad thing, I'm just relaying what had been mentioned to me.

that's fair enough - I just meant that the widening of the base was already built in to the design, and the manufacturers will argue that the equipment is safe to use when used properly, and therefore needs no additional measures other than training and understanding of the equipment and its uses.

[david.elsbury]

Yes, there are tallies in NZ. The Edge have at least one, if not two.

I am not looking forward to the day when I have to go up it......

 

David

[willhill]

I too have recently heard about the plight which Norwich Theatre Royal are currently suffering with the HSE - from what I was told, they were caught moving a scope while it was occupied in a spot check by the HSE and as a result they, as a venue, are currently in process of having a case made against them. So from what I know, I don't think they have actually been fined yet.

 

I think Will Hill is a member of BR, maybe we might hear something soon (from the horses mouth so to speak) - although I understand this might not be practical for legal reasons etc.

Norwich Theatre Royal is not being fined by the HSE. Norwich Theatre Royal is not being prosecuted by the HSE. Norwich Theatre Royal is working in 'partnership' with our local enforcing authority (EA) in an effort to discover how and if the HSE are able to permit use of a piece of work equipment against the manufacturers instructions (P.U.W.E.R.) in a controlled manner.

 

The manufacturers are not interested in changing their instructions.

 

After an initial investigation HSE Labs have decided not to further a study into tallescope 'mobile use'.

 

Their advice is; "If the dutyholder considers that their alternative procedure is safer than the manufacturer's and HSE guidance, their route to convince HSE that this is the case, is through trade bodies and meetings of industry representatives,"

 

The ABTT draft "Selection and Use of Access Equipment etc . . ." has been submitted to the chair of the HSE Advisory Committee for Work at Height Training.

 

Our EA are awaiting the HSE verdict on this document. If it is much longer in coming they might not wait.

 

Assuming the verdict is no to mobile use (rumour appears rife, so to be clear, we are now talking about the future, things that have not yet happened and are not facts!!)

 

Our EA might decide to serve a prohibition. We might decide to change our working practice before they do so, we might decide to change our working practice after they do so and then we might also decide to appeal and take the matter to tribunal.

 

I hope that clarifies where we are.

 

Will Hill,

Technical Manager,

Norwich Theatre Royal.

[gareth]

Will, thanks for that response - very useful. It'd be really great if you could perhaps keep us up to date with any progress on this matter as and when it happens - it sounds as though whatever happens at the Theatre Royal might well set a precedent for other EAs to follow, and therefore have ramifications throughout the theatre industry.