System Processing

[Scouse Dave]

Hi Gang.

 

I am currently looking into upgrading out PA install and am considering ideas for the system processor.

 

I could mention some products, but I think I will let you all loose without me giving you any preconceived ideas.

 

Specification:

 

- 6 FOH zones (Main L, Main R, Centre Fills, Delay L, Delay R and Subs)

 

- 3 monitor mixes.

 

- All processing to be done within the unit (I realise I might have to daisy-chain)

 

- Each zone must have 31 band EQ / multiband PEQ, delay, limiting, compression, crossover, hpf / lpf, etc.

 

- No graphic EQs @ mix position (at least for the purposes of this system).

 

- The unit must store multiple settings - for different events - that would enable only slightly technically savvy people to pick the setting for the particular event.

 

- Password protected access to all aspects of the controller from a computer at FOH - preferably with various logins with different access rights for each user.

 

- Ideally expandable as the system grows.

 

I think that's it.

 

Your ideas / suggestions would be welcome!

 

Thanks

 

Dave M

[Simon Lewis]

Dave,

 

Although you could use the present crop of system controllers (Drive Rack etc.) I think that the "virtual audio" boxes would be better.

 

Soundweb (and their new baby, London Soundweb) springs to mind, as does Peavey's Media Matrix (and their new baby, Nion).

 

These are good if you need a true networkable solution (and therefore designed to work as a larger system), otherwise Allen & Heath's iDR series are also worth looking at. These do talk to each other, but I understand that they are not networked as such.

 

Depending on how you intend wiring it up, and what level of end user control you want to give, all of these should do the job.

 

Simon

[mikewheeler]

I would agree that a matrix-style unit would be the best option. However, from an ease-of-use & sonic performance option, I would seriously consider the Biamp Audia units - the SOLO 1U unit is available either as 8-in, 8 out or 4-in 12-out or 12-in 4-out, and can be setup with remote wall-mounted controls for program select etc..or else there is the Audia FLEX unit which is expandable up to 24 inputs or outputs.

 

In the UK I think its Beyerdynamic who distribute them. I don't know how they compare pricewise to Peavey, but if my memory serves me correctly they are cheaper than Soundwebs as well.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Mike

[BlueShift]

The boxes that spring to mind are DBX driveracks - particularly for you, 480 and a 220 - these can be network controlled.

 

Else, the XTA stuff is great and sonically excellent, but very pricey.

 

I would definately be looking at the allen&heath iDR system though - it looks like it does exactly what you want - it has a central unit with plenty of memory and can have input and output expansions added as necessary, aswell as wall panel controllers and full network control.

 

Cheers

[Solstace]

Think I'd go with the iDR system because that's what I'm most familiar with, though it does seem your setup would be more complex than ours. How would you want to control it - are you using a conventional desk and just need the box to provide basic routing and processing?

 

As for no Graphic's at FOH - :P :unsure: ... Personally, I feel that even with a pretty system management box such as the iDR, these are a necessary evil unless you provide a control interface easily accessible to the sound dude - even if only during set-up. My view is that if you can't trust someone not to mess up your system, then don't let them loose on it. Saying that, I provide the training for my system/venue, so if I can't trust my own trainees then something's gone seriously wrong somewhere!! Anyways, I still think that taking away the tools they'd want to use can more often than not lead to a bad show for everyone, tech's included. My venue has done precisely this, and to my ear the sonic results are "merely average" at best, with regular complaints about poor system balance and all I can do is say "well, we're not allowed to change/tweak it".

;)

 

Perhaps if you could explain a little more about why you are considering such a system, and why there may be the need to lock everything down, then we might be able to get more specific. Is this for a church by any chance? If it's anything like ours, then you may well have many "non-technical" people who wish to use the system - never an easy market to cater for without reducing the facilities available to the more "experienced" sound tech's!

 

C ;)

[Chubby]

Soundweb ticks every box.

You would have to network two units to provide all the outputs that you need but from your spec you could probably get away with using a 9088ii which has 8 ins/outs & a 9008iis which will give you an extra 8 outputs.

Preset selection can be via several different methods depending on your budget / requirements. The most basic being a rotary switch connected to the logic inputs and the most complex / expensive is the very cool "Jellyfish" menu driven remote.

 

We use lots and lots of web's on installs and our hire work and they are very reliable indeed.

feel free to PM me if you need any advice.

 

Mark

[Scouse Dave]

How would you want to control it - are you using a conventional desk and just need the box to provide basic routing and processing?

Generally: yes. There may be some exeptions, but I'd rather get the best thing for the application at hand and then think about the other things it can do...

 

As for the Graphics: I meant to write "For the purposes of this question we will assume there are no graphics @ FOH"

 

This is for a church install (well deduced, sir - you may pick a prize!) and there are a number of non-technical people who run the PA for events (as well as other, more experienced people).

 

We will have the EQ in the DSP dialed in and those who can be trusted will be given access through their login to change the settings to their taste...

 

I am looking for flexibility & scalability, as we hope to be moving into a new building in 5-7 years - although I appreciate anything we buy now will probably be unsuitable for our main install in a few years - we could, on the other hand, use them for one of the smaller rooms or maybe to manage extra feeds - who knows what technology will be available to us then!

 

I am rather taken by soundweb (or soundweb London - I have yet to figure out the pros & cons for the application I'm looking at...) iDR could be a goer, too.

 

I guess I'll have to wait & see if the budget is available!!!

 

So, we have:

 

Audia Solo / Flex

Driverack

iDR

Peavey Nion

Soundweb

XTA

 

Any other players that should be in the game?

 

Any more Pros & Cons?

 

Thanks for your opinions, they have been helpful (& clarified what I already knew...)

 

Cheers

 

Dave M.

[gtm]

How about the ULTRADRIVE PRO DCX2496

http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

These are networkable and can be controlled by a computer. Have used a pair of them a couple of times and they sound really good IMO especially if you use the dynamic eq.

 

They are also really good value for money

[ljstevens]

Try the DME range from yamaha! does everything you have listed plus more!

[mackerr]

Dave, it is unclear from your question if you are looking for all this to happen in one box, or in several. A quick count gets me 9 inputs and at least 18 outputs, assuming all speakers are biamp, except subs which might want 2 outputs anyway. If the mains (or anything else) are triamp the output count obviously goes up. I question why you want 31 band eq in the system controller. Graphic eq is a quick user interface to solve a problem generally better solved with parametric eq. If you are setting up a system controller that will have users locked out of the basic system parameters, I don't see the need for graphic eq in the processor. If you need the user to have access to a graphic for it's ability to be used quickly, you have defeated it's purpose by having inside the processor. An analog controlled, easy to reach, graphic eq would be a better solution.

 

If this all has to fit in 1 box, the field gets narrowed. You can get everthing you asked for in MediaMatrix, or Yamaha DME64. I am not personally familiar with any other 1 box solution of this size. If you can use multiple processors, almost every box out there will fulfill the audio portion, the security portion might rule out a few. Expandability of MediaMatrix or DME64 is pretty easy, as is setting up user control panels that select different presets. If you do not need it all in 1 box, I am sure the other matrix type processors mentioned will have similar features, expandable by adding more boxes.

 

Mac

[Scouse Dave]

Hi Mac

 

None of the speakers are bi-amped (at the moment).

 

The idea of having all system EQ (granted, parametric or graphic) done within the DSP is because people who don't know what they're doing tend to play with things like graphics because they look interesting.

 

I would give logins to people and to some, EQ would be locked. To those I think can handle it, EQ will be freely available.

 

The system is hardly ever used for outside events (4 times / year maybe) and very often has novices at the helm.

 

If they could pick a preset system setting from the DSP, that would be fine, they wouldn't have to play. We would pre-load all the relevant settings into the unit.

 

I agree that more experienced people would like the ability to tune the system differently, they will be taught how the software works and be able to access the relevant GEQ / PEQ via PC control quickly & easily.

 

Re the number of boxes: Forgive me, I think I was unclear.

 

I would want to have the same system for all processing. I realise that, even without biamping, we are asking quite a bit.

 

I expect to have to have multiple units, but would want them to be networked, so we can access the control via a PC without having to worry about having multiple sessions open to control different controllers (does that make sense?)

 

I am seriously looking at Soundweb, DME64 and the iDR series as I think these fit the bill best.

 

I think all three could do the job I need admirably (both in terms of audio quality and feature set). I haven't seen many other products that will do similar things...

 

Do people still think I'm mad to have all EQ control through the DSP and not a physical graphic?? Isn't that what most digital desk setups have?? (Why shouldn't I just buy a digital desk & configure matrix outputs accordingly to do the same job?? I would probably need a separate x-over, but EQ & delay could maybe be dealt with at the console??)

 

 

Am I being stupid somewhere (it has been known)

 

Cheers for your input.

 

Dave M

[mikewheeler]

Dave,

 

If you're looking at networked matrix units, I would look at iDR and Audia as the two top units - I don't have any experience of the Yamaha units but from my experience both the iDR and the Audia units outperform SoundWeb in terms of sonic quality.

 

I don't know what the iDR programming interface is like, but the Audia one is blissfully simple!

 

Mike

[BlueShift]

Ok here is my 2 cents:

 

If you are gonna have an analogue desk then system processing is good, otherwise having it on the console is nice and simple. However, a digital console that does everything you want wouldnt be cheap.

 

I would suggest, unless you wanna invest in a yamaha M7CL or PM5D then keep looking at system processing options - the iDR units arent that expensive and get great crits. However, I have heard some bad remarks about the soundweb gear.

 

I think you need to give some long hard thought to usability. It seems to me that you want to have system processing to be able to have some presets out of the way for main events. However, if you then have to mess with a complicated (in comparison to physical EQ's) network interface it seems to me you have counteracted any extra simplicity by making custom control more difficult.

 

I am involved in heading up the sound team for Soul Survivor Church in Watford and we encountered the same dilemma when we recently did our new install. Do we go for an integrated system processor where all the knobs are safely out of harms reach in order to get greater consistancy and simple preset selection - or do we get lots of physical EQ's etc.. in order to have the utmost simplicity and flexibility at the expense of any preset recall abaility?

In the end we ended up having system processing with physical EQ's by the desk. This way, for a regular service, I can walk in and take all the EQ's out of the signal chain and its all setup nicely, but, should there be an unusual event or visiting engineer I can simply put them back in the chain (using the eq's in/out switch) and then set as I please. In reality, nobody is ever gonna need to mess with crossovers or anything like that because thats all part of the install - which will never change.

 

So I would reccomend you get an IDR or suchlike to have your EQing, delays, limiting and anything else you need hardcoded, set the normal presets as well as a 'zero' preset where the EQ's are flat and then have some physical EQ's by the desk.

 

Cheers

 

EDIT: and before you ask what processors we are using, we're not, we have a d&b speaker system using D12 amps which have inbuilt processing so I cant unfortunately give you any first hand advice on speaker processors from our install unless you fancy changing your whole setup to d&b :)

[BenWall]

Maybe a TiMax system... does the trick for. Although DME32 also very good.

 

Ben.

[Solstace]

Good to see more D&B kit in use in Christian Venues around the land, BlueShift! :)

 

In our church, we've gone with D&B kit and then leave the routing and some EQ/Limiting/Distribution duties to the IDR unit. I believe it can be expanded to 16 in/outs, so it should be able to do what you want, and I'd second BlueShift's comment about having physical EQ available to hand in case of unusual or external events/engineers turning up out of the blue.

 

And while we're on the subject of EQ, I've come to the conclusion that it's preferable to use as little as possible in your system, so if you're having to EQ the living daylights out of your speaker setup to get a decent sound from it, then there is something wrong with either the placement or gain/delay structure of your amp/speaker system somewhere down the line.

 

Not sure about the other big players, but I do find the IDR-8 programming interface a bit of a pain, but it's fairly obvious once you get into it. Sounds obvious, but if you want a look at how the IDR systems work, download the latest version of the PC software from the idrseries website and have a play for yourself. True, it won't simulate anything audibly, but at least you can get a feel for the interface.

 

Also, BIG note - make sure that whatever system you buy has a PC software interface that's 100% compatible with Windows XP SP2 - A&H have only just made theirs available, which has been a right pain since I changed my laptop 2 months ago and couldn't get a version of the IDR software to install to it without removing SP2!!

 

Hope this helps,

 

C.