New control desk for controlling intelligent lighting fixtures

[stuartglen]

what I meant was that the plays are designed on the basis of having at least one inteligent light to act as a follow spot. The way our hall is set up, there is no place to have a conventional followspot so what I am looking for is a scanner or moving head that can act as a follow spot and "look cool" when a disco or rock gig is on.

 

As for the improving infrastructure bit is oncerned, We already have as many lighting bar's as we can place in the hall along with all the dimmers needed to control them. My school already has lot's of profiles, frensels, spots and floods. We will be getting some parcans at the same time so the question remains.

 

Can anyone suggest a goood inteligent light to act as a follow spot and a suiable controller preferabely with a joystick

[david.elsbury]

Just to clarify, the scans you hired, (BTW that URL doesn't work, it's got a session ID in it specific to you and your session) from the info in the URL that you posted, were Futurelight 575 watt discharge scanners.

 

The ones that you want to buy are Futurelight 250 watt discharge scanners. A lot less bright.

 

Whatever you purchase, if you do, make sure that it has a dimmer inside the fixture. If you have to snap it from off to on, it'll be USELESS in a theatre situation.

 

David

[Dweeks]

what I meant was that the plays are designed on the basis of having at least one inteligent light to act as a follow spot. The way our hall is set up, there is no place to have a conventional followspot so what I am looking for is a scanner or moving head that can act as a follow spot and "look cool" when a disco or rock gig is on.

 

As for the improving infrastructure bit is oncerned, We already have as many lighting bar's as we can place in the hall along with all the dimmers needed to control them. My school already has lot's of profiles, frensels, spots and floods. We will be getting some parcans at the same time so the question remains.

 

Firstly, moving heads especially, and to a similar extent scanners make hideous "followspots", even using moderately decent desks such as a fat-frog. Also, a 250w discharge source will have little to no effect on a stage covered in 15-20k of generics. Think about it, its half the power of a lowest power par 64, then add in the poor optics which you're likely to get with a cheap scanner. Thus I'm afraid to say use as a followspot would not be successful whatsoever.

 

Disco/rock gig, ok fair enough if you want to use them for that, but I really can't see the point; if you're running a disco I assume you're hiring someone in to run it? Surely they'll provide there own lighting and sound?

 

I still am getting the sense you're buying these because you can, and they're toys and yeh, they're fun for a bit. You seem to be struggling to think of decent reasons for using them?

 

And finally, regarding the followspot issue, a few well selected profiles with a tight beam around the subject would look far better (i.e. for a solo).

 

Sorry, but I think you've not thought this through.

[paulears]

Unusually I don't agree. A couple of mid price 250W moving heads - Coemar, futurelight, Robe et al are VERY useful in a school situation as long as the control is straightforward. There are huge safety issues with schools and range from draconian where kids can't do anything off the ground, to the opposite where they can do anything with no safety at all.

 

A couple of movers can provide light anywhere, in colours and with a few gobos, generate mood. They really help GCSE drama. My experience, admitedly using strand control protocol, is that anybody can learn how to control them very quickly and can simply store their setting as a cue for recall next session. Generics are great when colour and focus can be set regularly - but this is not the case in schools. Group 1 want green light in a puddle in the middle of the room, group 2, 15 minutes later want something else. How do generics allow this?

 

Even cheap 'disco' movers can be quite useful - life span isn't normally an issue as total hours running never gets that high, and they rarely spin around and around constantly for hours. Frog desks and others like them do need an element of programming skill that is technically sound - old fashioned theatre protocol makes more sense. 1@7, wiggle ball, 2@5, wiggle ball, cue 1 record is far simpler to learn - and it doesn't take much to then press cue 1 go. The snag is finding a cheap desk - most new cheaper ones are not quite so non-technically friendly.

[stuartglen]

The lights I was considering getting from terralec were no quite el cheapo dico lighs, they inclued dimmers strobe and lot's of gobos, in a small hall these atributes alone would be valuable. The scanners previously used by us enhaned our plays by alot. About the brightness isuse, it's all a matter of contrast, in a solo scene you can dim the outher lights, making the scanner look brighter

[Dweeks]

paulears, Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with the use of moving technology in schools, in fact I think its a valuable learning experience; DMX, programming, gobos etc. However, what irks me is when people buy mickey-mouse gear because they can afford it, without the first clue how it will be helpful to the show, how it will enhance the lighting of the show etc.

 

And that idea you came up with, regarding the green "pool" effect; I agree that intelligents do make these things easier, but surely an important part of learning the practical side of lighting is to work within constraints...

 

If the OP has sufficient kit to do a basic overall wash, plus profiles to create some specials, what is the need for intelligents, except the fact that they're flashy and impressive?

 

And on the maintainance issue, on nice Robe/Martin/CP gear, yeh, it will last years without needing a lamp change, but cheaper gear is tempremental. I should know, I try to look after my gear, but the Intimidators have faults with the most basic functions; a set of cheap scans before them just died due to cheap internals. Compare replacing a busted £350 scan, with a £12 parcan lamp ... it doesn't add up to me.

 

Expense for no reason; you want to get into proper lighting, you need to work within constraints because you won't always have a budget for nice kit.

 

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The lights I was considering getting from terralec were no quite el cheapo dico lighs, they inclued dimmers strobe and lot's of gobos, in a small hall these atributes alone would be valuable. The scanners previously used by us enhaned our plays by alot. About the brightness isuse, it's all a matter of contrast, in a solo scene you can dim the outher lights, making the scanner look brighter

 

Firstly, they are cheapo lights, I'm sorry but theres no beating about the bush on this; I'm sure they're great value for money, but they are just that, cheap. I have a pair of cheap lights, I now know the flaw and the value of them, and won't be making the same mistake again.

 

And regarding the "dimming other lights"... this seems quite a daft idea to me - cutting off nose to spite face comes to mind? Maybe it seems logical to others, but if I had the choice of using a 250w disco light or a 650w quartet profile which would cut through the rig, and not cause a dimmness on the rest of the stage, I know what I'd choose.

[david.elsbury]

And regarding the "dimming other lights"... this seems quite a daft idea to me - cutting off nose to spite face comes to mind? Maybe it seems logical to others, but if I had the choice of using a 250w disco light or a 650w quartet profile which would cut through the rig, and not cause a dimmness on the rest of the stage, I know what I'd choose.

250 watt Discharge not 250 halogen. A 250 discharge light (which, BTW, is what the OP is considering purchasing), would cut perfectly well thru a rig of 650 profiles, and is almost bright enough (again, IMHO) against a rig of 1k's.

 

Just thought I'd clear that up... 250 discharge, not halogen... halogens would be useless, you're absolutely right.

[Dweeks]

And regarding the "dimming other lights"... this seems quite a daft idea to me - cutting off nose to spite face comes to mind? Maybe it seems logical to others, but if I had the choice of using a 250w disco light or a 650w quartet profile which would cut through the rig, and not cause a dimmness on the rest of the stage, I know what I'd choose.

250 watt Discharge not 250 halogen. A 250 discharge light (which, BTW, is what the OP is considering purchasing), would cut perfectly well thru a rig of 650 profiles, and is almost bright enough (again, IMHO) against a rig of 1k's.

 

Just thought I'd clear that up... 250 discharge, not halogen... halogens would be useless, you're absolutely right.

 

 

Ahhh, ok, my mind was stuck on the original scanner he posted. Discharge would work, yeh, although it would depend on the other lighting in use of course. Also the positioning of the scanner would be vital as without a zoom lens, the size of the gobo for followspotting would not be variable?

 

Ah screw it, maybe he should get some nice 1200w golden scan 3's :blink:. Sorted!

[stuartglen]

you mean something like this?

http://www.aclighting.com/

[Dweeks]

Huh?

 

Yes, look at Aclighting, talk to them, tell them your specific needs (if you've figured them out by then... my suggestion is you don't start with "I want these because they look cool"....) and they'll be able to advise.

 

I also suggest you talk to your drama teacher or Head of Drama at the school and ask him what he suggests. He or she will know what is necessary in a new system, without seeing cheap scanners and going all wobbly at the knees. If you've genuinely got enough generic stock to fill a hire store, then I suggest you think about spares, and getting a really nice desk which can control generics and movers. Also, think of some spares, you complained on the other thread that the school PAT tester had damaged your dimmerpacks, and you have no fuses.... seems a good start to me. And get those broken channels fixed.

 

Also, if you're school can't maintain some basic dimmer packs, whats the chances with some even cheaper Scans?

 

Oh, and don't ask for Golden Scan 3's... that was a joke. Rather pricey.

[stuartglen]

the link was supposed to be to this

http://www.aclighting.com/bargains/view.asp?ref=1338

or would I be better of with something like this?

http://www.futurelight.com/fut_artdetail.p...51839275&lang=E

it uses a 575w discaharge bulb

[Dweeks]

You're not really listening to what we're saying are you? We're not saying that the problem with your idea is the scanner choice, its the basic principle that you're using a scanner for more or less no reason, when you could invest in some Source 4 pars which would produce a similar effect, for far less cost!

 

We are saying that it seems like you have no real purpose for using the scanners, other than the fact that you want them because they're "cool". Instead people are suggesting that you don't waste your money on something which is unneccesary and invest it instead in something which will be useful for you! For instance, some more channels of generic dimming, some new generics (why use normal pars... you could afford S4 gear!), a decent desk, a nice stock of gels, fuses and lamps. That will still probably leave some money left over which is always useful in schools, and would pay for future hires! (Which, shock horror, may not necessarily be those same two scanners... what happens if you need to hire an Atomic, but you've blown your budget on a couple of scans with a poor strobe?)

 

But if you're darn set on getting scans for no real reason, then yes, ok, a decent scan like those suggested, or maybe even some decent moving heads would be a better choice than the Terralec disco scanners. And well done for picking up on the fact we mentioned AC Lighting... I know reading posts and taking in the advice that you've asked for is hard

[stuartglen]

the reason we want a scanner is to act as a followspot in productions, I would be looking at a followspot but as there is no place for putting a followspot we can't do that.

 

Previously when we hired in scanners they vastly improved the production.

[Nick S]

I think you might be missing the point of getting scanners - they don't really make good followspots. You'll find it extremely hard to make it look convincing, and they'll invariably overshoot actors/cast, or just spot the wrong place entirely.

 

Now what they're good for are, as Paul says, situations such as GCSE/A-Level Theatre Studies/Drama shows where you have multiple sets requiring different effects and the like. I'm not trying to put you off, but I feel you should realise that scanners, particularly the low end ones you're looking at along with controller, cannot really act as an effective spotlight.

 

 

I don't want to sound rude, but having seen the other threads you've posted here I feel the best possible option for you would be to ask a lighting professional to come in and advise your school as to the best possibly option for the money you have available. They will have worked with hundreds of schools for many years, and know exactly what works and what doesn't.

[sam.henderson]

If I could just add my views;

 

Moving lights and scanners can be useful in schools for example I know one school which invested in four Mac 500s, it was ideal for them because they have a large stock of generics already, there infrastructure was sound and could deal with the new fixtures and when they got them they were given four spare lamps, another set of gobos to use as well and a load of DMX cable. The benefits for them are endless for example now as they operate generics and MLs on two different desks you can get more students involved than before, because the stage is quite small you can actually get a decent wash out of them etc. They also have a handful of experienced technicians available to them who know about things like DMX faults, changing lamps and gobos, termination, maintenance and cleaning etc.

 

Paul is completely correct when he says how useful they can be in GCSE (and AS and A2) devised situations where you might have to light up to 10 short devised pieces with the same rig. Without the Moving Lights in this school they certainly wouldn't be able to provide specials for each group because they would just end up running out of channels!

 

The difference is however between this situation and the OPs is that the mentioned school has invested in high quality, bright, theatrical almost moving lights with all the spares and accessories to go with them however the OP is planning on getting cheap, discoy (Sorry anything futurelight makes is discoy) scanners and a cheap desk that you won't be able to teach effectively on and will just be fiddly and a pain in the ass.

 

If you want my advice I would say save the money and then next time some more money comes along save that too etc. until you can afford something like two used but in good conditions Mac 200s or the Robe equiv (which are just as good and a little bit cheaper).

 

Good Luck,

 

Sam