Help with re-connecting School lighting

[gareth]

Repeating what's already been said - but another vote for 'getting a professional in' to have a look at what's going on, and advise on a way forward.

 

While there's nothing which immediately leaps out as a concern with the rig itself, I'd definitely want to have a closer look at what's holding it all in the air. As stated, the installation (and I use that word hesitantly) of the dimmer packs is absolutely shocking.

 

The other thing which I don't think anyone has mentioned so far is your statement that you've got the PAR64s working on one of the dimmer packs. PAR64s are generally 1000w lamps (there's a 500w variant but it's pretty rare to come across one in the wild). If you've put all six onto one dimmer pack, that's a 13amp socket overloaded by a factor of almost 100%. (The addressing scheme on the dimmers also looks a bit funky - as four-channel dimmers they should start at addresses 1, 5, 9 and 13, but yours seem to start at 1, 2, 3 and 4!)

[TheGardener]

The best thing you can do is condemn the system until you've had a professional come and look at it, as well its interesting stud bar mounting technique.

 

This looks like a classic case of some one retro-fitting cheap LED parcans into a school install, not labelling anything, and leaving the school with absolutely no knowledge on how to use it.

Disco Dave with his cosmic rave comes along, has no idea what he's doing with his ultimate sound to light setup and cross plugs everything into anything.

[IRW]

The best thing you can do is condemn the system until you've had a professional come and look at it, as well its interesting stud bar mounting technique.

 

This looks like a classic case of some one retro-fitting cheap LED parcans into a school install, not labelling anything, and leaving the school with absolutely no knowledge on how to use it.

Disco Dave with his cosmic rave comes along, has no idea what he's doing with his ultimate sound to light setup and cross plugs everything into anything.

 

Hmm. Despite all of the concerns being outlined upthread, I think this is a bit strong - With all of the above posts in mind, I'd suggest that it's not the OP's place to simply 'condemn' the system given their admitted limited knowledge. Raise concerns, yes, outright condem, no.

[Simon Lewis]

Hmm. Despite all of the concerns being outlined upthread, I think this is a bit strong...

 

plus - this is far from unusual... many schools have just one person who understands the sound and lighting gear, and when they leave all knowledge goes with them, despite any attempts to record it or pass it on.

 

That's not to say poor techniques or workmanship should be ignored or condoned, but just to highlight this story is repeated across hundreds of schools.

[sunray]

Hmm. Despite all of the concerns being outlined upthread, I think this is a bit strong...

 

plus - this is far from unusual... many schools have just one person who understands the sound and lighting gear, and when they leave all knowledge goes with them, despite any attempts to record it or pass it on.

 

That's not to say poor techniques or workmanship should be ignored or condoned, but just to highlight this story is repeated across hundreds of schools.

Totally agree and sometimes it's a surprise who the expert is/was. I had almost a clone of this in my grandsons school where the expert was one of the cleaners AKA caretakers wife who went into hospital for emergency Hysterectomy the day before the electricians did PAT and a couple of weeks before the end of term play. The whole of the lighting and and AV system had been left unplugged and the 6x 5 channel packs had been removed from the wall as part of the testing. Fortunately the lights were still rigged and relatively focussed, The desk was also a similar product to OP and had been programmed for the show. The 5A circuits had been unpatched.

 

2 of the children were LX ops and with a little input from a teacher were able to help me with what was supposed to happen on which programme step.

 

The AV was easy, couple of PC's, CD player & DVD player, small mixer, projector and couple of powered speakers.

 

 

This is only the second year on the trot I haven't had a call from a school for something like this in maybe 10 years.

 

[AndyJones]

Where abouts in Hampshire are you? We’re in Basingstoke, and might be able to help.

[sunray]

Another common problem I find with the similar school call out is something missing, the 3 pin XLR DMX leads invariably make their way into the audio kit and the DMX splitter is often noticeable by the bunch of cables hanging down with nothing to plug into, even no desk. I think quite often the problem is a teacher leaving and taking their own kit away with them.

[xllx]

I would agree with getting someone on site to sort this out, it shouldn't take long. I started to write out instructions for trying to sort this out, but there are just too many variables and unknowns which started turning it into a massively long troubleshooting document! So in the end I abandoned it!

 

A couple of things I did notice, is that you have 20 or so cables plugged into the dimmers, yet you only have 6 dimmable lights in your rig... This suggests all the LED pars are also plugged into the dimmers which is not optimal. It can be made to work, but involves additional programming and electrically is not ideal.

 

The other is that the DMX addresses on your dimmers make no sense. The address you set on the packs is the DMX address of the first channel on that pack, the remaining dimmers on that pack follow sequentially. So, with 4 four way packs, you would probably address them as 1, 5, 9, 13 which would mean DMX channels 1-16 each controls an individual dimmer channel.

 

The first thing I would do is try to identify which plug is connected to which light and label them. This will give you a fighting chance of sorting the system out.

[Junior8]

That's the conclusion I reached Mike with the data being taken up to the bar by the flying leads - hence the feed to banks of LEDs. But let's cut to the chase here. What seems to have been done is to make a 15A IWB set up function with LED Pars by a work round. Now this school is not unique thousands will be faced with converting to a post dimmer/vacuum lamp world at some time and you can bet your life there will be no money to do it properly. The other thing is that once they introduced the Mini T I thought that Strand had got everything right for places like schools in what was essentially the Junior 8 replacement - indeed I would have stuck with the single outlet per channel version. In the days when schools were limited usually to 500W lanterns it was a bomb proof combination. So when I was asked to compile a simple stage lighting guide for teachers in around 1994 it was simple as with pretty well everything being based (Pulsar/Green Ginger/Zero88 etc etc) on that original modular concept even a beginner could plug the kit together and get it working. Half an hour's tuition on the two preset desk and they were away. A few simple rules and a decent mains installation and their terror just faded away. Our OP could have worked it out on his own given a few minutes thought. What we have here is just the kind of corner cutting work round pit together by someone who just wants to get things working that will become common if the education sector is not careful.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Junior8

[alistermorton]

According to controlbooth thread, the school is between Salisbury and Bournemouth.

[sunray]

I would agree with getting someone on site to sort this out, it shouldn't take long. I started to write out instructions for trying to sort this out, but there are just too many variables and unknowns which started turning it into a massively long troubleshooting document! So in the end I abandoned it!

I started doing exactly the same thing and ran out of 'what if's'

A couple of things I did notice, is that you have 20 or so cables plugged into the dimmers, yet you only have 6 dimmable lights in your rig... This suggests all the LED pars are also plugged into the dimmers which is not optimal. It can be made to work, but involves additional programming and electrically is not ideal.

Likewise I came to the same conclusion

The other is that the DMX addresses on your dimmers make no sense. The address you set on the packs is the DMX address of the first channel on that pack, the remaining dimmers on that pack follow sequentially. So, with 4 four way packs, you would probably address them as 1, 5, 9, 13 which would mean DMX channels 1-16 each controls an individual dimmer channel.

I the other Forum OP has explained he changed them in an attempt to make sense of what's there, he is aware the photographed settings are incorrect, however looking at the pics a second time I'm not convinced they are all displaying "A1, etc" so I wonder if some are in a different mode.

The first thing I would do is try to identify which plug is connected to which light and label them. This will give you a fighting chance of sorting the system out.

Myfirst suggestion remains, fade every possible fader to 100% as a starting point.

[Stuart91]

Myfirst suggestion remains, fade every possible fader to 100% as a starting point.

 

That's fine for the LED in the rig, but if you're unlucky this could be a way to easily overload the supply if there are more incandescent lamps present than it can cope with all at once.

[sunray]

Myfirst suggestion remains, fade every possible fader to 100% as a starting point.

 

That's fine for the LED in the rig, but if you're unlucky this could be a way to easily overload the supply if there are more incandescent lamps present than it can cope with all at once.

I don't disagree with your statement in general.

In this situation I see; 14x led @30W = 420W & 6x Par = 3 or 6 KW total =15 or 26A assuming the 2 supplies to those sockets are 16A there is another 4.5 or 1.5KW for the other devices Which I've forgotten.

Edited June 3, 2021 by sunray

[Stuart91]

In this situation I see; 14x led @30W = 420W & 6x Par = 3 or 6 KW total =15 or 26A assuming the 2 supplies to those sockets are 16A there is another 4.5 or 1.5KW for the other devices Which I've forgotten.

 

All true, but let's hope that the mains supply has been installed a little more carefully than the dimmers seem to have been.

[sunray]

In this situation I see; 14x led @30W = 420W & 6x Par = 3 or 6 KW total =15 or 26A assuming the 2 supplies to those sockets are 16A there is another 4.5 or 1.5KW for the other devices Which I've forgotten.

 

All true, but let's hope that the mains supply has been installed a little more carefully than the dimmers seem to have been.

In my experience these days any 'mains work' is done by the book. What I see is 2 DSSO's and each has an OCPD lable, indicating 2 different circuits. Unless something silly like fitting 6 or 10 A MCB's has been done I don't forsee any appreciable problem. Not withstanding what else may be connected to those same MCB's.

The mess we see that's been added by some Numtpy is a different matter.