Cheap smoke machines with live XLRs.

[bigclive]

I recently bought a smoke machine from CPC to see how it fared in electrical safety. It was fine.

 

I then bought a similar generic imported smoke machine called LED-500 from a Chinese eBay seller via their UK warehouse.

It has the remote connected with the common 3 pin XLR socket.

At power-up every pin of that socket is live at full mains voltage with pin 1 notably being directly connected to live. (even when the machine is switched off locally)

 

If a standard XLR cable is used to extend the remote, either the button type or the RF dongle type, then a few things can happen.

 

If a cable with metal connectors connected to pin 1 are used then those connectors become live at full mains voltage.

 

If cables get mixed up and a microphone gets plugged in then the entire metal body of the microphone can become live.

 

If a DMX network accidentally gets plugged into it, every single light will potentially be damaged.

 

If audio equipment is plugged into it, it will be destroyed.

 

If an unbalanced cable is used that has pin 3 connected to pin 1 then it will power the heater block continuously.

 

Such an exciting little machine. (and not a new thing either) I made a video about it.

 

[alistermorton]

Yes but all that safety guff is just red tape tying up business, you know.

[Mixermend]

This is really horrifying - and whilst we in the Industry allow ourselves a smile at the gross design incompetence, the reality is that these things will be used in homes and small halls for kids parties and similar events, due to the very low cost of buying it.

 

Trading Standards Officials must be made aware of this product and UK supplier - and I appreciate that there will be many other similar dodgy items for sale - but this seems so dangerous and lives could easily be lost.

[ojc123]

This is really horrifying - and whilst we in the Industry allow ourselves a smile at the gross design incompetence, the reality is that these things will be used in homes and small halls for kids parties and similar events, due to the very low cost of buying it.

 

Trading Standards Officials must be made aware of this product and UK supplier - and I appreciate that there will be many other similar dodgy items for sale - but this seems so dangerous and lives could easily be lost.

I picked up on a £7 ebay disco light with a counterfeit plug and fuse at a child's party recently. It is scary that this can be happening. It's not so easy to get people to take notice.

[bigclive]

Yes but all that safety guff is just red tape tying up business, you know.

 

It is on sites. It's become a job-creating blight of axe grinders.

 

That's very different from trading standards.

 

This is really horrifying - and whilst we in the Industry allow ourselves a smile at the gross design incompetence, the reality is that these things will be used in homes and small halls for kids parties and similar events, due to the very low cost of buying it.

 

Trading Standards Officials must be made aware of this product and UK supplier - and I appreciate that there will be many other similar dodgy items for sale - but this seems so dangerous and lives could easily be lost.

 

I'm sure they are aware, but the scale of direct imports bypassing the usual routes is staggering. These machines have had issues from the start including the early use of IEC connectors with the earth pin used for a completely different purpose. (Which Mode did with Arcline too to be fair.)

 

I had a go at getting some eBay listings for very dangerous stuff taken down and eBay weren't actually too helpful. The products then sprung right back up again in new listings. These days I think a better approach is to make videos exposing the issues and hope that people will spot the rogue items.

[paulears]

It's rather sad that in one topic, we have quite serious (from the risk aspect) problems with people doing things electrics and trying to follow standards, and in this one we have mass produced items going into use with totally unskilled users.

 

On a pure risk assessment, surely there should be high numbers of accidents, but there appears not to be. If the authorities don't see any real issues with the total failure of CE markings that's been going on for years, and these clearly dangerous products, who exactly really is protecting the public. Clive's point that making videos could be the best and most effective safety measure is actually right - but really shouldn't be.

[alistermorton]

It is on sites. It's become a job-creating blight of axe grinders.

 

That's very different from trading standards.

 

I know. I was being somewhat sarcastic, though I suspect that there are those who think trading standards ensuring goods are safe to sell to the public is just red tape getting in the way of doing business,

 

 

 

 

These machines have had issues from the start including the early use of IEC connectors with the earth pin used for a completely different purpose.

 

I have a smoke machine that uses an IEC for the remote, which has a button and a lamp to show it's up to temp. I haven't metered it to see what voltages are present.

 

Not made by some unknown fly-by-night"cowboy" firm, thought, this is a chauvet.

 

 

 

who exactly really is protecting the public.

 

Lady Luck?

 

People do get belts off equipment, but don't die or get seriously injured, so maybe they just shrug it off as "one of those things".

 

 

 

[sunray]

I have a smoke machine that uses an IEC for the remote, which has a button and a lamp to show it's up to temp. I haven't metered it to see what voltages are present.

 

Not made by some unknown fly-by-night"cowboy" firm, thought, this is a chauvet.

 

Indeed, my Cobra light desk has the IEC inlet for the purpose, Which initially I assumed was the mains inlet for the desk, as it came without a wall wart, until I saw the 'Fog Machine' marking.It does make me wonder how many have been plugged into the mains though.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by sunray

[bigclive]

Early Chauvet stuff was just badged imports. Although they've evolved into a formidable brand their legacy does involve some shady use of the IEC connector.

 

I bet that IEC earth pin isn't being used as earth...

[sunray]

Early Chauvet stuff was just badged imports. Although they've evolved into a formidable brand their legacy does involve some shady use of the IEC connector.

 

I bet that IEC earth pin isn't being used as earth...

I don't know but now the question has been raised, I intend to change the battery before the next use and will try to look at the connector.

 

[richard_cooper]

Early Chauvet stuff was just badged imports. Although they've evolved into a formidable brand their legacy does involve some shady use of the IEC connector.

 

I bet that IEC earth pin isn't being used as earth...

 

Resurrecting this thread, I found this at the back of a store at work today. Not just early Chauvet, but Martin were at it as well at some point. I thought maybe it was a counterfeit, but sure enough on Martin's website there are two manuals for this machine, this one and a slightly later one where the remote is hardwired. And no, the earth pin in the remote socket is not connected to earth, shows continuity to both live and neutral on the inlet however. I've not got time to investigate further at the moment.

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by richard_cooper

[Stuart91]

We had some similar machines back in the day. (JEM Sharky if I remember correctly)

 

The thing that annoyed me about the IEC remote arrangement was that if someone plugged the remote into the wrong cable, you could easily find yourself creating a live-neutral short on the mains. Now this is unlikely at the machine itself but if someone was extending the cable the length of a venue it's easy to see how a mistake could occur.

[timsabre]

Yes the wiring on those machines just has live on the live pin and switched live on the neutral pin. The remote just shorts the 2 pins so if plugged across the mains it would short L-N.

Not sure what you are metering on the earth pin though.

 

[bigclive]

I'm getting quite a lot of creepy comments on my video from defiant DJ experts announcing that the connector on the back of the dodgy smoke machine is not called an "XLR". It's actually called a DMX connector apparently.

 

My corrections have been met with defiance or silence. I've had to delete some of the comments because they could encourage people to plug DMX leads in.

[sunray]

I'm getting quite a lot of creepy comments on my video from defiant DJ experts announcing that the connector on the back of the dodgy smoke machine is not called an "XLR". It's actually called a DMX connector apparently.

 

My corrections have been met with defiance or silence. I've had to delete some of the comments because they could encourage people to plug DMX leads in.

Well yes we do have to be a bit careful there as some smokes are DMX controllable and maybe those who shout do indeed have that type... I won't hold my breath to find out...

 

But actually I thought it is where I'm supposed to plug my microphone in...

On one of my lighting desks I have the male IEC for this purpose and I confess that originally I assumed it was for mains input as the desk was S/H and came without a psu. Fortunately I actually turned it over and looked before I inserted the socket.

I have worked with another guy who has several of such smokes and habitually plugs the remote and the mains lead together for storage, also has a splitter so can plug the remote into 4 different machines, the result being the pins of unused plugs are live and of course the live of all the machines are connected together and as soon as one has reached temperature they can all be fired with the resulting jet of hot oil.

I convinced him it was wrong and built a relay box