jamienip Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Well I would personally be happy with that if I was in charge, although, if possible would coach screw into floor for extra security, I think the load on the front will be fine. as long as you rig the back first, and secure the structure. I'm not saying yes do it, I am saying I'd be happy to do it, subject to certain conditions etc, and only if square box section truss. (edit) I am not a rigger, I accept no liability. Thank you please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonino Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 thats all im after peoples opinions, I personally thought it'd be ok, but didnt want to tarnish peoples thoughts! thanks for the input :-) all responsibility is my own. if I am a muppet I am to blame, if I am not I am not ;-). forum excused! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lightnix Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just to echo a couple of things that have already been said...Talk to the manufacturer / supplier. There is no other way.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>Apart from getting a professional rigging company in to do the job. Barbed wire around truss legs, anti climb paint, what utter, utter nonsense. The punters should not have any access to any part of the structure. The solution is barricade and security...<{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thank you, Mr. Evans :unsure: At the risk of sounding tetchy, comments like......build a ply box around the bottom (edit:) with barbed wire around the top to prevent people doing so.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>and......a grease slick in a paint can. Doesnt come off so you can ID the culprit, and its slippy as hell so you cant get a good hold...<{POST_SNAPBACK}>...are stupid, dangerous and have no place in here :huh: Neither do comments to the effect that, "I'd do it this way, but I'm not a rigger, so don't blame me if it all goes wrong." Chaps, we're talking about the potential for truss collapse here, with things falling on people's heads, death, injury, lawsuits, prosecutions, names in the press, etc., etc. No disrespect, zonino, but stuff peoples' opinions. Once again, what you need is professional advice, from competent companies who make and / or rig truss for a living. There is no other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djw1981 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 It can be done, and I have indeed seen it done (albeit on a larger scale. The key is talking to your rigger / truss hire and getting your loading inch perfect. When you ring them, you may need to tell them exactky what you wnat to put on, and they will tell you where you can have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Instead of all this fannying about with cantilevered truss overhangs and getting involved in rigging problems which are beyond your ability, why not just address the root cause of the problem by lighting the performers in a different way? (Hint : low crosslight, from fixtures outrigged on the downstage side of the front legs ....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emj Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just a couple of points Ply cladding the legs of truss is not uncommon when structure are in locations where there is not compleat control. I been in jobs a number of times when we have done this. 1 large one was at the science museum. Try cord truss can be stronger than quad cord just depends on make Em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Evans Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Just a couple of points Ply cladding the legs of truss is not uncommon when structure are in locations where there is not compleat control. I been in jobs a number of times when we have done this. 1 large one was at the science museum. Try cord truss can be stronger than quad cord just depends on make Em<{POST_SNAPBACK}>You are unlikely to get drunk punters trying to climb truss legs in the science museum, whereas you are very likely to get people trying to climb over or shake ground support in a live band environment. The addition of cladding, barbed wire and other foolishness only serves to challenge the drunken punter and make them more determined. Don't encourage them, remove the temptation by seperating it from their environment. Punters climbing ground support towers is a showstopper in my opinion. Obviously some triangular truss is stronger than some square truss but all other factors being equal, square truss is the stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Getting a bit off topic now but, surely if the apropriate signage was displayed on your perimeter wall Eg: Warning: Barbed wire in use for crime prevention purposes. Would that not stand in your favour?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, that is admitting liability - things like if an intruder is bitten by a dog in your house and you have a Danger: Dangerous Dog (or some such) you are admitting the dog is dangerous, making you liable, otherwise chances are you would be found without fault. As for the truss - find someone who knows truss (read: a rigger) and present him with the specs of the truss, the weight you plan to have on the front truss, floor securing method etc. I mean if you really wanted, year 12 physics (in AU at least) gives all the tools you need to calculate all the forces etc, and hence work out whether it will be structurely sound. But to get reduce liability, get someone with a piece of paper to do it. Now if you were to move the legs out the extra meter, you will still need to re-evaluate the truss, as its max weight/meter will be lowered. However if you shorten the stage by a meter... The easiest way, as mentioned was to use alternative lighting methods - side lighting, or a tree, floor lights... Not all lights have to be hung from the ceiling. And if you do move the legs into the audience, then to stop punters, the way I have seen it done, is a 4 strand barrier using electric fence tape and a stock standard electric fence zapper on it. Basically after touching the tape once, chances are they will not touch it again - 10,000 volts (with jack all current) are basically a touch once and never again thing. They are harmless, and the punters are on the ground when they touch it, so they will not fall. Shove on a "Electrically protected area" sign, and bobs your uncle - and at least in australia, it is perfectly legal. The other way, is just to place a perimter barier there and place signs on each side saying "Unauthorised entry to this area will result in removal from event" then get a member of crew to enter in normal clothes, near the start of the event, and drag them out the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Punters and structures don't mix.Keep them well away. As regards the cantilever situation: It isn't within the competence of the posters or they wouldn't need to ask. Fair enough. So what to do?Speak to the manufacturer (not supplier) in question about the specific application.This may attract a fee (because it costs to do the work and to have the insurance policy to back it up). Can't afford to do it the 'right' way? Do as Gareth suggests, light it another way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonino Posted June 4, 2005 Author Share Posted June 4, 2005 I can calculate the ness. load balances etc etc (I got bored in my thousands of chemistry lectures last year), and know that with 1 metre it will be fine, I just wanted to check that I wasnt forgetting anything with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Evans Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 And if you do move the legs into the audience, then to stop punters, the way I have seen it done, is a 4 strand barrier using electric fence tape and a stock standard electric fence zapper on it. Basically after touching the tape once, chances are they will not touch it again - 10,000 volts (with jack all current) are basically a touch once and never again thing. They are harmless, and the punters are on the ground when they touch it, so they will not fall. Shove on a "Electrically protected area" sign, and bobs your uncle - and at least in australia, it is perfectly legal.More nonsense. In a crowd at a gig, people are quite often moved against their will into barriers etc, and you would electrify it? You must decide if people and structures can be mixed. At for instance an exhibition, people wander around structures but there is not the same density of people at an exhibition neither are they fueled up and ready for mischief. In a gig environment, or at a sporting event or anywhere where the punters become in any way excited, punters must be seperated from structures. There is only one way to do this, that is by using a physical barrier which prevents contact. Where there is any risk of punters climbing said barrier, it must be policed by adequate numbers of trained security staff. Deterence is not an acceptable solution, prevention is. Barbed wire, electric fences and other nonsense are deterence measures, they only put people off they do not prevent them from doing something. A manned system can respond flexibly (in a way which other systems cannot) to any situation e.g. what if someone who is being crushed and needs to be evacuated from a crowd is pushed onto your electric fence??? Not so clever now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lightnix Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 electric fence... zapper on it... 10,000 volts... touch once and never again... get a member of crew to enter in normal clothes... drag them out the door.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>More nonsense...<{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes, pity - that looked like it was going to be a reasonable post for a minute. Such solutions might work in the outback or maybe North Korea, but this is the UK and we do things differently here. Once again: what is an unqualified student doing giving crowd control advice??? I'm sorry if that sounds snotty, but this thread is starting to irritate. The sensible answers (i.e. get a professional, or light it differently) have been posted more than once and the whole thing is just going round in circles now, with a lot of dangerous fantasy being added along the way. Please stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackerr Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 the gig im planning at the moment is going to be a truss box on truss legs (rather than stands) and the truss legs are usually inline with the speakers and the front of the stage, im considering an overhang of say a metre to get the front row of par cans out further from the stage to give a better angle to the stage, what would peoples thoughts on this be?thanks, Stan<{POST_SNAPBACK}>Your picture didn't show up for me, but this is a fairly common practice in the concert industry. It is critical that you work with the truss supplier to be sure your system is safe. All connections between truss members should be made with proper corner blocks not clamps, and the vertical truss legs should have floor plates on them of an appropriate size. to reiterate, work with the truss supplier and an experienced rigger to design and install the system. Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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