Other fabrics like Holo-Gauze

[Toni Haaranen]

Hi,

 

We're in need for a fabric which would be good for video projection but still would be see-through. Holo-Gauze (http://stuartwarrenhill.com/holo-gauze/) would be perfect but we need lots of that fabric and Holo-Gauze is too much for our budget. So would anybody have any ideas for other fabrics like that? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[the kid]

We used this recently. Not sure the cost but I imagine all of the similar effect stuff is the same price +/-.

 

https://www.showtex.com/en/products/flame-retardant-textiles/scrim-netting-gauze/pepperscrim

[ImagineerTom]

If the fabric is too expensive then abandon the project now. Doing this sort of work requires much much brighter projectors than you think you need. Much much more time choosing and rendering the content than you think you need. Much much more time physically setting it all up properly than you think you need. The film is the cheapest part of the whole process and if that’s pushing you over budget already you’re better off cutting your losses now and looking for an alternative method because the technology you’ve chosen so far is expensive and time consuming

[Toni Haaranen]

Thank you for your response "the kid" I will check that Showtex fabric out.

 

For ImagineerTom, If you don't have any input on the question in hand you can just choose not to reply. I'm not going to go in to details of our budget or the production itself but just saying that we do realise the requirements of the work we are doing. And as we need four 25m x 10m pieces of that fabric it is a significant part of the budget because it's something the house doesn't already have. But if you do have any input or suggestions for a fabric please do share it.

[ImagineerTom]

If you need 4 pieces that size this would make it one of the biggest “hologram” projection projects ever undertaken and the manufacturers would be falling over themselves to offer you discounted rates in return for the publicity / pr potential such a massive job would generate (the average use of this technology is less than 1/2 the size of just one of your film pieces) so that is the angle you could pursue.

 

Though as per my previous note, the amount of projection power required to project on to film at that sort of size is absolutely insane and I dread to think what your projector budget is? My quick calculations for that sort of surface area (and allowing for the typical loss and inefficiencies of this technology) says you will be using over 300,000 lumens which is a serious hire bill and a team of experienced projectionists to deal with setting up and physically running a projector array of that scale?

[Toni Haaranen]

I must repeat myself: I'm not asking for your opinion on anything else than the fabrics and if you don't have any you can choose not to reply. Please leave this thread for people how have some input on the question in hand. Thank you.

If you need 4 pieces that size this would make it one of the biggest "hologram" projection projects ever undertaken and the manufacturers would be falling over themselves to offer you discounted rates in return for the publicity / pr potential such a massive job would generate (the average use of this technology is less than 1/2 the size of just one of your film pieces) so that is the angle you could pursue.

 

Though as per my previous note, the amount of projection power required to project on to film at that sort of size is absolutely insane and I dread to think what your projector budget is? My quick calculations for that sort of surface area (and allowing for the typical loss and inefficiencies of this technology) says you will be using over 300,000 lumens which is a serious hire bill and a team of experienced projectionists to deal with setting up and physically running a projector array of that scale?

[ImagineerTom]

There are several Chinese factories banging out generic versions of the film that work out around $60/m2 landed in Europe BUT the optical quality isn’t so good and they have zero backup and support (they will literally sell you a roll of plastic and nothing more) plus there are the delays involved in getting something that size shipped over from China. In absence of more information about your production timescale, the skills and experience you have with this specific technology (the western companies are more expensive but they sell you a service and expertise along with the film) the sort and scale of projectors you’re using (can you afford the 95% loss some of the Chinese films have or do you only have enough projector budget for the more efficient and this more expensive films?) and finally the application itself (background eye candy effect where resolution and focus don’t matter or primary effect where crisp sharp high resolution is essential) and finally whether you’re using this with a bounced projection or front projection. Only with all that information could anyone give an informed opinion as to which make of film is suitable for your project.

 

.... but as you say you don’t want to reveal anything about the project and are only interested in price so I don’t see how anyone can give meaningful help?

[Toni Haaranen]

Thank your response. I do not have any experience on those Chinese suppliers but we do have a good timeframe with the production so we could order samples and make tests with those films. Could you name some companies that have some sort of fabrics like that?

 

We are using mainly front projection on those fabrics.

There are several Chinese factories banging out generic versions of the film that work out around $60/m2 landed in Europe BUT the optical quality isn't so good and they have zero backup and support (they will literally sell you a roll of plastic and nothing more) plus there are the delays involved in getting something that size shipped over from China. In absence of more information about your production timescale, the skills and experience you have with this specific technology (the western companies are more expensive but they sell you a service and expertise along with the film) the sort and scale of projectors you're using (can you afford the 95% loss some of the Chinese films have or do you only have enough projector budget for the more efficient and this more expensive films?) and finally the application itself (background eye candy effect where resolution and focus don't matter or primary effect where crisp sharp high resolution is essential) and finally whether you're using this with a bounced projection or front projection. Only with all that information could anyone give an informed opinion as to which make of film is suitable for your project.

 

.... but as you say you don't want to reveal anything about the project and are only interested in price so I don't see how anyone can give meaningful help?

[ImagineerTom]

SHENZHEN SMX DISPLAY CO.,LTD is probably the biggest one to recommend (with all the usual caveats about buying from Chinese manufacturing industry companies) but again I do need to stress that getting the film is the easy/cheap part and that you have a lot of work to do on getting everything else right. The tensioning alone is critical and a 1mm difference in your tension beams (along that 25m length) would be enough to make the film unusable and wobbly so make sure you’ve got all the phases of this planned out and prepared before you start spending any money.

[Toni Haaranen]

Thank you! I realise the risks of using a Chinese company in this industry but will check it out if they could provide a small sample of their product.

 

I appreciate your effort. We are still on very early stage of the production and all those you mentioned are something we will need take care of.

 

Thanks.

[timmeh2]

Hi

 

I have to concur with Tom's fag packet calculations although I suspect 300,000 lumens is still a bit on the low side if you factor in transmission losses and atmospheric refraction. You say 'mostly front' so you'll be doing rear projection as well. For that size of screen your throw distance will the measure of how well it works.

 

As a starting point might I suggest you have a word with Barco and ask them about their UDX-series projectors; 32,000 lumens is a good starting point for a single unit. Depending on how the panels are arranged I think you'll need about 20 of them, plus spares.

 

On a personal note it is frustrating when someone asks for advice, but refuses to tell us what it's for, or why.

 

Please do return and post some pictures of the finished project - it does sound very interesting.

 

All the best

Timmeh

 

 

 

[Toni Haaranen]

Hi,

 

Sorry for not giving you more info but as said we are in very early stage of the production I don't have the right to tell you what production we're doing at this point. I'm sure you folks can understand that.

 

But what I can tell you is that the idea is that the gauzes would on different depths on stage so that we can project on all of those with the same projectors. (Not at the same time obviously) So it's not that interesting as you guys started to imagine it would be and that's why there is no need for those calculations of lumens. Sorry for misleading but I was only asking for alternatives for Hologauze.

 

But as there seem to be very few options for original Hologauze we might afford only to have one or two of those and then settle for some other solution for those other fabrics upstage.

 

Thanks for the input anyways.

[Wilkie Branson]

Hi Toni,

 

sorry I know this thread is a bit old now but I thought I might be able to offer some insight.

 

I completed a project last year which used 3 peperscrims which we used as alternatives to hologauze as they were easier to get hold of.

 

We had three 7 by 3 meter gauzes spanning the stage space, one downstage, one mid and one up - similar to how you describe but smaller. We used 2x10K projectors to front project each gauze (to avoid spill onto the gauze behind they were rigged at a ver steep angle) - 6x10Ks in total. Because of how the pepperscrim works you can get a lot of light onto them compared to say a black sharks tooth gauze so you might not be as against with projector brightness as mentioned above - it will really come down to ambient light and how your projectors are throwing onto the gauzes.

 

you can have a look at what we did here if you interested in seeing how our setup worked more: www.wilkiebranson.com/promo

 

we're currently working on a tour in china, and are considering getting a second set of gauzes for touring in asia and im sure it is possible to get a similar material manufactured out there for a lot less, but its difficult to know how pepperscrim is constructed, (showtex wont even tell us what its made of; we had to do a repair on one of them) so getting such a specific material out there will be difficult as in the flesh it just looks like any other fine gauze.

 

hope that helps some, let us know how you get on.

 

wilkie

 

[BristolHugo]

Hi everyone,

 

Thought I'd jump in here.

Sorry it looks like I'm a little late to the party.

 

Disappointed that people are finding it difficult to get hold of Hologauze.

Please contact me directly and I'll remedy that:

hugo@holotronica.com

 

secondly, the projection and content advice offered is sound and it is something many of our customers fail to realise so I'm glad to see it being mentioned.

 

Also, those screen sizes are indeed massive and would be one of the largest shows to date so we would be delighted to discuss pricing with you directly.

 

finally, the material out of china is nothing like Hologauze - it is just a white gauze and has no safety certification.

 

To clarify:

 

Hologauze is the original and best performing gauze and is the only one to fully support stereoscopic 3D.

It is a patented technology.

It is more transparent and has a higher screen gain than any other gauze.

It is manufactured from silver coated nylon and is fully coated. Pepper's Scrim has only half the silver, hence half the brightness.

Hologauze has B1 FR certification and we also have full tensile strength and wind loading data available on request.

 

Hologauze is not effective as a rear projection surface owing to the reflective properties of the material.

We will be releasing our own branded equivalent of Pepper's Scrim later in the year which will be available at a lower cost.

 

I hope this helps but please feel free to email me directly with any questions.