Venue 'claw backs' from visiting productions

[IRW]

And don't get me started on the venue who insisted it's a 4 crew call to use the 'scope if you want specials focussed.

 

In their defence, on just that one point - if you want to move the Tallescope with a person in the basket, then yes, strictly speaking it is a 4-person operation these days. One up top, two pushers, and a 'banksman'. Not attempting to excuse their attitude in any way - just pointing out this one fact!

 

Maybe nickb wanted to just use it statically, and was happy to ascend/descend to focus his specials?! http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif*Puts lid back on can of worms and buries it at the back of the shelf along with the instruction manual for another day* http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif

 

Anyway, back on topic, I can fully understand venues recharging for requests that would incur additional costs over a standard X-many house crew contract- in a venue I used to work in, visiting companies got two house techs as part of the contract- one of these had to be duty technician, but the other could be whatever they needed. If extra staff were required to be called in on the day, that would be a recharge to the company, which to me seems fairly sensible.

 

Other things that could be recharged were things like consumables such as haze fluid, use of the house grand piano (as it involved paying piano movers to move it onto the stage and a tuner to come and tune it), and basically things that would otherwise cost the venue money. IIRC, we didn't charge for use of lavalier radio mics for professional 1-man and a lecturn type events, where we would fit and operate, but if an andram company wanted to use a full set of however many we had, they would be charged a reasonable usage fee to cover the inevitable wear and tear/ mis-treatment/ broken mic capsules. I'm pretty sure we didn't charge for anything that was otherwise just sitting there, and had minimal wear & tear, like steeldeck/risers for example, as management encouraged us to ensure that all shows should look as good as they could, within reason, so if, for example, a one-nighter didn't have an LX guy, and we ended up doing it, we could throw a hazer in at our discretion if we wanted to.

[mac.calder]

The last venue I tech managed at charged for any expensive capex items or easily damaged items.

 

For example, we had a set of Riedel wireless comms. 8 beltpacks, antennas dotted around the venue for full coverage. Not a cheap investment, so we charged on a per belt-pack basis to get some RoI. Obviously where it made our lives easier for our staff to use them (like the Duty Tech who may also be operating flys because the show was main out, act 1, main in, interval, main out, act 2, main in), he would grab a pack and we would not on charge that. But if they specifically requested wireless coms for their crew, we absolutely charged. Where long term (>2 week) touring productions were coming in, we would generally ask what their rental rate was on the comms and offer to hire for slightly less than they were paying - they got a system with perfect coverage across the entire venue and saved a little bit of money, we made some return on our investment.

 

We would also charge for painted cloths that we kept stock of - we had about 30 different cloths which a lot of dance schools liked to use, they took up a fair bit of space and digging them out was always a pain, so we charged nominal fees for them and during dance season we would charge less if you used the cloths others had requested in the locations they had been hung.

 

Consumables was always a "reasonable use" scenario at the discretion of the Duty Technician - a bit of gaff and electrical tape was fine... 2 or 3 boxes over the course of a 3 night show... you are getting a bill. Same with water - we had a couple of water coolers that took the big bottles of water. If you are a dance school (paying for venue hire only, no catering) then we would charge per bottle - at about $2 a bottle more than we were paying for it. Just have 2 or 3 guys working back stage for a small show where the contract included food and drink for the talent but nothing for the crew - have at it.

 

Some producers claimed we were nickle and diming them, but really my aim at the end of the quarter was for Back of House to be breaking even (or enough in the black for a couple of slabs and some snackage for the tech team). They were also, most notably, only complaining after they failed to promote the show enough to fill the theatre beyond 30-40%. We were 2200 pax and these producers quite often overestimated the draw of their show whilst underestimating the manpower and costs associated with a 2200 seat house with an outsourced box office.

[nickb12345]

And don't get me started on the venue who insisted it's a 4 crew call to use the 'scope if you want specials focussed.

 

In their defence, on just that one point - if you want to move the Tallescope with a person in the basket, then yes, strictly speaking it is a 4-person operation these days. One up top, two pushers, and a 'banksman'. Not attempting to excuse their attitude in any way - just pointing out this one fact!

 

I accept that, and accept that the reason we had to re plot was because the promotor in this case was too tight to pay for the extra crew, but to then proceed to use the scope with 2 crew because it suited them and meant they didn’t have to come in at early the next day was the issue here.

[alistermorton]

Only instance I can think of where I've been mildly surprised was being charged per show for use of the venue's snake to the mixing point because the audio guy's snake wasn't long enough. Not sure if that falls into Ian's definition of something just sitting there anyway.

[IRW]

Only instance I can think of where I've been mildly surprised was being charged per show for use of the venue's snake to the mixing point because the audio guy's snake wasn't long enough. Not sure if that falls into Ian's definition of something just sitting there anyway.

 

Most definitely- I was talking to a friend of mine who runs a relatively small, but high-end, hotel the other day, and I realised the way I would treat incoming companies is very similar to how he likes to present his hotel to guests- he encourages staff to do as much as they can to present it more as a 'home', and I think the same is true of how I like to present my venues to incoming companies. I.e, it should be clean, tidy and welcoming (not that my home is currently clean or tidy, but you get the idea!). In your example about the multi maybe the guy should have done a bit more research into the size of the venue, but we all make mistakes or let something slip through the net every now and then, and I really don't see how it is in anyone's interests in this example for a charge to be applied for what is most likely a very rugged piece of equipment sat on the shelf that will sustain very little, if any, wear and tear in use- now if the venue had had to hire a multi in for the show, that's a different kettle of fish.

 

At the end of the day we should all be working together to put on the best show for the audience, and I wouldn't want my venue to be that one which the company move on from and then complain to all the rest of the venues on the tour about- I'd much rather be the one that they look forward to returning to.

[Stuart91]

At the end of the day we should all be working together to put on the best show for the audience, and I wouldn't want my venue to be that one which the company move on from and then complain to all the rest of the venues on the tour about- I'd much rather be the one that they look forward to returning to.

 

Good point. Often venues don't realise that the people making the decisions about booking do actually listen to the technicians. There's a particularly obnoxious hotel in Glasgow with a terrible load-in, and the staff seemed to do everything in their power to make the gig difficult for us. Our client was all set to book a series of conferences with them, but we persuaded them to go elsewhere. That's a loss well into five figures for the hotel.

 

I imagine that many promoters booking theatres for a tour will have similar conversations with their folks too.

[Just Some Bloke]

And don't get me started on the venue who insisted it's a 4 crew call to use the 'scope if you want specials focussed.

 

In their defence, on just that one point - if you want to move the Tallescope with a person in the basket, then yes, strictly speaking it is a 4-person operation these days. One up top, two pushers, and a 'banksman'. Not attempting to excuse their attitude in any way - just pointing out this one fact!

 

I accept that, and accept that the reason we had to re plot was because the promotor in this case was too tight to pay for the extra crew, but to then proceed to use the scope with 2 crew because it suited them and meant they didn’t have to come in at early the next day was the issue here.

 

Indeed, Nick, this is naughty! Perhaps an email to the venue manager asking for clarification on whether 2 or 4 people are required to move the tallie is in order! He'd have to reply 4 thus implicating his crew. :)

[Seano]

At risk of derailing the thread, these days he'd be pushing his luck admitting in writing to moving an occupied tallie regardless how many crew were doing the moving wouldn't he? After all the debate a few years back I thought the HSE had ultimately come down firmly on the "nope" side and made it clear they'd be looking to prosecute in the aftermath of any accident involving a scope moved with someone in the basket.

 

Of course, as mentioned above, you don't need *any* crew around the base to use a scope in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions with brakes on and outriggers deployed. Should be perfectly feasible to focus a few specials without taking all day about it.

[Shez]

To give a slightly different perspective...

 

At my smallest venue, we used to have a few radio mics that we used to charge for. (Virtually nothing else is charged for.) After much complaining and grumbling from regular incoming companies ("the other venues we use don't charge!"), we stopped charging for them. Over the course of a few years, they all got damaged (perhaps people not valuing what they don't pay for?) and because they'd not brought any money in, there was (and still are) no funds to replace them. Anyone that wants radio mics now incurs an external hire which costs more than the internal used to. Can't win!

[IRW]

To give a slightly different perspective...

 

At my smallest venue, we used to have a few radio mics that we used to charge for. (Virtually nothing else is charged for.) After much complaining and grumbling from regular incoming companies ("the other venues we use don't charge!"), we stopped charging for them. Over the course of a few years, they all got damaged (perhaps people not valuing what they don't pay for?) and because they'd not brought any money in, there was (and still are) no funds to replace them. Anyone that wants radio mics now incurs an external hire which costs more than the internal used to. Can't win!

 

Exactly the reason why we didn't charge for one man and his dog style pro shows, but did am-dram companies and such like.

[gareth]

The venue at which I most recently spent quite a long time working pretty much struck the right balance, I think (although you may not agree!). This is certainly how it used to be when I was full-time and involved with the admin/paperwork side of it, anyway ...

 

Staff-wise - visiting companies got two technicians (one stage, one LX) included in the hire of the space for 8 hours of get-in/fit-up and up to four hours per performance call. Anything over and above that was extra - and there were often individually-negotiated variations for smaller-scale shows. Get-outs recharged as appropriate. Sometimes people wanted to get away with the absolute minimum even for a larger show ("We're touring two of our own people, won't four be enough?"), but generally saw sense once they were asked how they intended to get their LX rig up in an hour with just two crew in a counterweight house!

 

Equipment - a very comprehensive generic lighting stock was made available to all users of the theatre space, and was more than enough to cover most needs. A fair bit of LED and automated kit was also available, as well as video projection, radio mics, smoke/haze machines, etc., but that was all chargeable at a very reasonable rate (way below what it would cost to hire it externally) just to cover wear and tear, lamp hours, and so on.

 

Consumables and colour - informally, generally worked out on a case-by-case basis. If you wanted us to provide your colour call from what we had in stock, no problem. If you specifically want a load of obscure Apollo colours and will accept no substitute, we'd charge for those. Snaffle a couple of rolls of LX tape on the fit-up because your touring stock is running a bit low and we'll say nothing ; but use rolls and rolls of gaffer or dancefloor tape, and we'd have to talk about making a small contra charge to replace our stock.

 

Essentially, common sense prevailed, and most people seemed pretty happy with it.

[Just Some Bloke]

At risk of derailing the thread, these days he'd be pushing his luck admitting in writing to moving an occupied tallie regardless how many crew were doing the moving wouldn't he? .

 

No, as I understand it it is fine to move a tallie with 4 people if you have had the upgrade kit fitted and the crew have all been trained. At least, I hope this is the case as it's what we do and that was the whole reason for paying for the upgrade kit!

 

Gareth's description of how he recharges sounds very much like how I have always done things at the last 3 venues. Very sensible.

[Modge]

There's a well known corporate venue that for at least year after moving to LED fixtures for the sails (oops have I given the venue away?) used to charge a minimum 4 hour call for a lighting bod to change the colour of them. This used to make a lot of sense when they had generics that needed re-gelling, but when it was a case of sticking a new palette in the desk a four hour call the day before the event seems a bit much...

[gyro_gearloose]

Looking at this from the venues point of view, charging incoming shows for things can help them focus a bit on what they actually need.

 

We've had shows come in that have asked for things like treads into the auditorium, or a bar of profiles rigged downstage, only to be either met with confusion as to why we were giving the show something they didn't want, or to be told "ignore the rider"! That doesn't help when the crew have spent time setting up what was asked for, and have got to spend more time de-rigging things, when the shows didn't know that we'd be providing things they don't want, or that they don't want what they've actually asked for!

 

Perhaps charging a nominal fee for some things would help to end the frustration of wasting the venue crews time on things that shows don't really need.

[paulears]

I'm very familiar with this situation, where the crew on arrival look at what they have and ask for all these changes. You show them the rider and they've never seen it before in their life. One even commented "this explains why everywhere were go the stage is littered with drum risers" - which they always require to be struck. The phrase "that's an old rider" should be banned. I can see the case for charges for these total wastes of time. From time to time you also get the reinstate requirement, where every show returns to what it was, when many times, the neutral state is never what anyone wants. Like where every lantern has lilac and steel blue, so everyone wants something else, but then they recolour back again, and again ........

 

I'd like to think most venues do it neutrally, but some just seem to be getting crafty.