Paul J Need Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Lightnix posted something very close to this subject just after the news broke about Playlight going under last year I beleive. It would be interesting to have one of the poll's on the subject maybe?. As I am involved with the equipment hire side of the business any feedback would be most welcome. Most of you will realise that the list price of hiring a peice of kit per week is virtually unchanged since about 1988 ( if not earlier) Purchase prices in this time have probably increased by 20%, lamp costs by 10-15%, I won't bore you with how much Business rates have gone up but at least 50%. The list goes on.. wages, Employers NI contributions, insurance (DON'T LET ME GET STARTED ON INSURANCE!!!!!!) Frankly, it's no wonder some hire and indeed sales companies are going to the wall. The sums just don't add up. Part of what you pay for a service actually includes an "insurance" payment ( i.e. Profit) so the firm you want to use is still in business the next time you want to use them - or complain about a peice of kit which died 3 weeks after you bought it. There are some hire companies renting out MAC500's for £30 a day, even considering aggressive Martin Sales techniques, heafty discounts and a rate of interest not seen since the 1950's - it still doesn't add up. In the theatre hire market a West end producer will expect a 50-60% discount off list for equipment rental, ask the hire company to reduce the price when box office is suffering - but forget to ask the hire firm to start recharging at the "normal" rate once "bums on seat" figures improve. Then you look at some conference firms who charge £12 per day for a Minuette Fresnel. I am not having a moan about this by any means, I love what I do, - but just curious to what people think on the matter. The Big Boys such as white light and SLX need to get kit out of the door - seemingly almost at any price - as they have become such large businesses are they destroying it simply by trying to survive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryson Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I guess it's akin to the Supermarket "Price Wars" of the late 90s - do you remember the 3p beans? Eventually the market grows out of it - but not before the medium-sized companies are forced out of business, leaving the Giants and the small, niche market companies. I have to say that I'm very very glad that I don't work in the private sector at the moment. I really don't know the solution. For my part, I try and use Local Hire firms (although I do use SLX for lighting...the service is just better than anyone else nearby..) and pay them a reasonable rate, not squeeze them for every possible price concession. But, to be honest, as a rule customers will go with cheap prices until the service really lets them down. (Just look at how many people use AC lighting...cheap, but poor service..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 I guess it's akin to the Supermarket "Price Wars" of the late 90s - do you remember the 3p beans? Eventually the market grows out of it - but not before the medium-sized companies are forced out of business, leaving the Giants and the small, niche market companies. I have to say that I'm very very glad that I don't work in the private sector at the moment. I really don't know the solution. For my part, I try and use Local Hire firms (although I do use SLX for lighting...the service is just better than anyone else nearby..) and pay them a reasonable rate, not squeeze them for every possible price concession. But, to be honest, as a rule customers will go with cheap prices until the service really lets them down. (Just look at how many people use AC lighting...cheap, but poor service..) I dunno - and you a South London Boy - going to SLX!!! PAH ** laughs out loud ** I do remember the 3p can of beans very well..... but the price went up again cos it was unsustainable. Just a ploy to get some shoppers to change stores........ so . perhaps the small boys should advertise a Parcan for £1.00, a moving light for a fiver??? You will find though that some business will come your way - then put the prices up again - and phummpf!!! Back to their previous supplier. Service is vital I agree.. I have heard so many stories about AC I have lost count. But is a package hire deal can be haggled down by £50 by calling around... people do it - and price wars start.. We try to say no as I have two cats to feed B) A few years ago we got in to a price battle with a VERY Large sound company for a season at Regents park..... in the end the BIG Fella......... did a 17 week season for the grand total of £0.00 + VAT rather than loose the contract! Make you think eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Service is vital I agree.. I have heard so many stories about AC I have lost count. But is a package hire deal can be haggled down by £50 by calling around... people do it - and price wars start.. We try to say no as I have two cats to feed B)I have to stick up for AC Lighting here ... I've never used their main HQ in High Wycombe, but I've dealt with their northern office in Leeds on more than one occassion, and the service I've received has been very good. My usual supplier used to be Lighting Tech until they hit the skids ... the chap I used to deal with there is now with Stage Elecs ... it remains to be seen whether his prices remain competitive, but AC Lighting North are certainly going to be getting more calls from me when I'm shopping around for things. There's also the advantage that, from where I live, I can go to AC North to pick something up myself and be there and back in half a day - not an option with SLX. Give AC Lighting North a try when you next need to buy some kit - 0113 255 7666, and talk to Jonathan Walters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 Service is vital I agree.. I have heard so many stories about AC I have lost count. But is a package hire deal can be haggled down by £50 by calling around... people do it - and price wars start.. We try to say no as I have two cats to feed  B)I have to stick up for AC Lighting here ... I've never used their main HQ in High Wycombe, but I've dealt with their northern office in Leeds on more than one occassion, and the service I've received has been very good. My usual supplier used to be Lighting Tech until they hit the skids ... the chap I used to deal with there is now with Stage Elecs ... it remains to be seen whether his prices remain competitive, but AC Lighting North are certainly going to be getting more calls from me when I'm shopping around for things. There's also the advantage that, from where I live, I can go to AC North to pick something up myself and be there and back in half a day - not an option with SLX. Give AC Lighting North a try when you next need to buy some kit - 0113 255 7666, and talk to Jonathan Walters. This message thread was never meant to be the start of I love SLX - I hate TP - I Love Autograph I hate ................ More about general pricing and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryson Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I do remember the 3p can of beans very well..... but the price went up again cos it was unsustainable. Just a ploy to get some shoppers to change stores........ so . perhaps the small boys should advertise a Parcan for £1.00, a moving light for a fiver??? You will find though that some business will come your way - then put the prices up again - and phummpf!!! Back to their previous supplier.I wasn't really defending this type of practice - merely pointing out that it happens to all sorts of businesses. As for the solution? I really don't know? The naive answer, I suppose, is: "Stay small and serve that niche market until it gets a bit more sensible." But it's difficult to take that kind of long-term view when you need to feed your family! I think I'll shut up here...does anyone know an economics expert? PS: I use SLX because of a historic Cambridge connection...Andy does me proud, as did James Irvine before him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 This message thread was never meant to be the start of I love SLX - I hate TP - I Love Autograph I hate ................ More about general pricing and the like. Agreed - I was just trying to balance things out a bit. You have obviously had a bad experience or two with AC Lighting - I just thought I'd stick up for them! I'm not sure that you're right about pricing. I know very little about business and marketing (if I did, I'd be doing it for a living ), but it strikes me that the only way for a company to succeed is to attract business, and the only way to do that is to be competitive, and to be competitive you've got to offer a bit more than the others. In terms of what the hirer gets for their money, there's not a great deal of leeway there - you want nice well-maintained kit, you want it supplied on time, and you want good backup. So perhaps the only two ways in which one company can really stand out above the others is by offering outstanding customer service that stands head and shoulders above the rest, or by offering a fairly ordinary (but nonetheless satisfactory) service at rock-bottom rates. Perhaps there's room for both scenarios - small hirers like schools and drama clubs might be happy to pay a premium for the knowledge that there's always going to be a friendly voice on the end of the phone who is happy to answer all the simple "how ..." and "why ..." questions about the equipment on hire. At the other end of the scale, there are also the people in this business who are perfectly happy to just get a truck full of kit and get on with it. You're right in that when the haggling gets serious it can sometimes have an adverse effect on what's provided in return. But the bottom line is that no-one, in any aspect of business, says to themselves "You know, I really think we should be paying more for these goods/services/whatever". Commerce just doesn't work that way (does it ... ?). You can bet that when the big hire companies go to Martin to buy another 50 Macs, they do their damndest to get them as cheaply as they can - and so it goes down the chain ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 I think I'll shut up here...does anyone know an economics expert? I wasn't having a go...... we all have our favourite people we use. Its a fact of life that someone will always better better then you are, someone will always be cheaper, someone will always be more expensive, and someone will take the p*** out of people they beleive to be more unfortunate than themselves. We have Mrs Thatcher to thank for getting rid of the closed shop, powerful unions and getting rid of most or the cartels. Just so pleased I am not in the lighting and sound business in Baghdad!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan v Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Just so pleased I am not in the lighting and sound business in Baghdad!! Oh, I don't know - you'd probably do a roaring trade on skytrackers and followspots over the next few months.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 Oh, I don't know - you'd probably do a roaring trade on skytrackers and followspots over the next few months.... Hate to see the letter from our insurere if we told them we were setting up office on Bagbad!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 Agreed - I was just trying to balance things out a bit. You have obviously had a bad experience or two with AC Lighting - I just thought I'd stick up for them! No, gareth have never had a bad experience using AC - I have used them 2-3 times in the last 3 years I think. It would not be my place to start slagging off other companies or individuals - that's impolite and it's not my style. Was sent superb quote on this matter..............."Companies that slash their prices in order to win sales are run by weak entrepreneurs and weak businessmen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lightnix Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 OK, OK, no further prompting needed. I've been meaning to add a post to this thread since it first appeared, but haven't been sure quite where to start... This isn't just about prices, it's about the way the business views itself, which seems to me to be the underlying problem. We (freelancers and hire companies alike) have a very low level of self-esteem. We see ourselves as merely tradesmen, not professionals. We are "only the crew", "just the suppliers". We have nothing to contribute except our labour. We do it for the love - what other reason could there possibly ever be ? There is also the 'traditional theatre view' that you are not being 'true to your art', unless you are living on the breadline, half-starving in a dingy attic somewhere. Making a decent living, let alone a real profit is seen as a sin, a crime, something dirty to be avoided. We do ourselves and each other down at every opportunity, scrambling over each other to get 'the gig', regardless of the cost to ourselves, our lives and the business as a whole. We have allowed ourselves to be divided and ruled by those who have no problem with making a profit. Do you think for one minute that the likes of Andrew Lloyd-Webber, Cameron Macintosh or Harvey Goldsmith feel the slightest tinge of doubt or guilt about their fabulous wealth as they are chauffered back to their beautiful mansions in their shiny limosines ? No. Why should they ? They've worked very hard for it, taken risks and chances that could have finished them at a stroke and would have left lesser men as quivering piles of spineless jelly. There is no crime in profit. There's nothing wrong with making lots of dosh, it's what you do with it afterwards that counts. We are all prostitutes in the end and we all sell our bottoms for filthy lucre. My point here is that if you bend over for better money and conditions then you don't have to bend over so often. As the chairman of the VPLT (the German PLASA) was rumoured to have said recently: "you don't hear about companies going bust because they're making too much money". Then there is the narrow parochial view of the business taken by just about every part of it. TV sees Theatre as pretentious, Theatre sees TV as populist, Conference regards itself as the cream and Rock 'n' Roll sneers at everybody else for not being macho enough. Everybody thinks of their own little corner of the business is if it were all there is to it. We are blinkered, tunnel-visioned, we cannot see the wood for the trees and stubbornly refuse to take a few steps back to look at the Big Picture. No disrespect, chaps, but I think the 'this company versus that company' direction that this thread has so rapidly taken illustrates this point perfectly. The last time I worked in a theatre was in 1994-5, in the West End. Professionally it was like working on a desert island, nobody talked about anything workwise, other than what was happening in the West End. If a show went away on tour it was as though it had sailed into the sunset and fallen off the edge of the world. And so the business drags itself further into the swamp, bleeding itself to death by a thousand price cuts a week. Some people call it an "Industry", but I don't, not any more. Real industries work together to solve their mutual problems, so that they can move forward together. Sure, there is still competition and sometimes it gets abit silly; but at the end of the day the individual players will drop their self interest in the broader interests of their industry as a whole, so that it survives in the long term and does not become devalued to the point of bankruptcy. Not us, we know better. We work in showbusiness, to which the rules of normal business and the real world do not apply. Why should they ? We are different. We are showbusiness. Yeah, right. This is not an Industry, it's just a business. A ###### little business, with a small 'b'. Mostly (although not entirely) run and staffed by sorry little people with sorry little minds. The book price of equipment has remained frozen for at least a decade now, if not longer, on top of which most hire companies will happily offer a 40-60% discount to any Tom, Dick or Mary who walks in their door, just to get their custom. Freelancers are no better. Some of them will work for £120 a day, a rate I last charged, again, about a decade ago. Quite how they manage to keep themselves legal with insurance, proper training and PPE is a mystery to me. Or is it ? Many just don't bother, I've met them many times. Why don't we just give up the struggle and all work for free ? If you take things to their logical conclusion that's where it will wind up in the end, so why fight it ? It's not just here in the UK, it's everywhere, in Europe at least. I've spent large chunks of the last four years working in Germany, where a 'certain company' in Hamburg has been known to send out MAC250s for €2.50 (£1.70) per week - a third of the price of a PAR64 ten years ago. Another 'certain company' in Surrey calls Hamburg as it's first choice for sub-hire, it's just so much cheaper than getting kit in the UK, even with the delivery and collection. The results are there for all to see: crappy old kit, under-crewed shows, under-equipped crews, lengthening hours, shorter schedules, sandwiches instead of proper meals, shared rooms in cheap hotels... I could go on, but it just makes me want to cry, real tears sometimes. For heaven's sake, three major companies hit the wall last year and there have been rumours about at least another half dozen others, including some of the 'big' names. Yes, I am being negative. No, I can't be positive, not any more. No, I have no solutions, other than the obvious ones (like charging sensible prices or passing on increases in overheads to the clients), which the business isn't interested in. God knows I've tried, but it's just too much effort these days. The apathy and the lethargy around me is just to great to overcome on my own. All I can do now is save myself and run like hell for the door I see closing in front of me, before it slams shut forever and I'm trapped in here until I die. Many of you already know that I've given up freelancing. I did it on November 11th 2002, when after twenty years, ten months and one bad gig too many I finally walked out on a show for the first (and last) time ever, although "had the next best thing to a nervous breakdown and ran away in floods of uncontrollable tears" would be a more accurate description of what actually happened. I knew then it was over and have not been back on site since, turning about £5k of work down in the process. But I'm OK. I've had my little idea, I have a little money to put behind it and I'm going for it. I'm scared to hell about the future, but I'm looking forward to it like nothing else I've ever looked forward to before. Whatever happens in the end, it can't be any worse than what will happen to me if I stay here. I'm not leaving lighting completely, I'm just taking a BIG step sideways and getting off the tracks before the express train hits me. I'm not finished yet and you certainly haven't seen the last of me in here That quote about weak businessmen in Paul's last post came from the leader of a Business Link course that I've been attending, on the qualities that make a successful entrepreneur. Here's another one to think about... That which the mind concentrates on and believes in will come true, to the extent of that belief. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a new life to build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 OK, OK, no further prompting needed....SNIP by Peter...Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a new life to build.ABSOLUTLEY FANTASTIC POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One can only take ones' hat off to a post such as this. To every new arrival in the business reading it should take on board ALL that was written - so many truths, so many things all of us wanted to say but never got around to it. Call me an old cynic ( I told you I am used to it) this depth of expression, of feeling will hit us all if we continue to work in a business, in the way we all do, who's primary aim seems to crap on others from a great height at every conceivable opportunity. How many more brokern marriages, phone calls from the kids asking "when are you next coming home Daddy", car crashes on the A1 containing freelancers working 18+ hours a day for less than £6.66 per hour (including expenses - not including travelling time) The freelancers may as well go work at McDonalds..... least you get some hot food! Well done lightnix! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a new life to build.And all I can say is good luck! I don't think we'll see a more honest post round here for a long time to come. Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I don’t know quite how to react to Lightnix’s post, but I feel I ought to so say something, so here goes. As a student entering the industry, his comments are very worrying. I’ve set out into the business largely for love, always with the fact that I won’t make huge amounts of money in mind. I do hope however – one day – to be able to create a stable living from my income. Everyone has always warned me not to enter the business to make money, but I have never understood why this should necessarily be the case – How is the Entertainment industry different to any other?? I do love what I do, and feel very privileged to have met some pretty amazing people over the last five years in the industry who have virtually always gone out of their way to teach me and help me along. I hope one day to be able to give something back to the industry by passing on the same courtesy to future generations of designers and technicians - as many have done for me. It seems to me that there is little we can do as individuals to change the problems faced by the industry. I have great admiration for those like Peter and Richard who are making a contribution in the way they know how. On a personal level though, I guess the best I can do now is to not haggle for the lowest quote when I hire kit, and not sell my sole for less than it is worth! On a larger scale, surely the only way of ending this downward spiral is for all the trade organisations like PLASA, ABTT, BECTU, ALD and PSA to get together to try and combat falling rental rates. Is there anything we can do to encourage them to work towards this?? I would like to commend Lightnix for speaking out and saying what many others never dare to. His patience and helpfulness makes him a great role model for us ‘youngsters’. Finally, Lightnix, I would like to wish you well for the future. I hope your new venture brings you all the success you deserve – and a lot less stress! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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