nickb12345 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Morning All After some opinions on multitool that are, to the letter of the law, legal in the UK. Currently I have a Leatherman Wave but while the blade is less than 3" it is locking. Now I know these are legal with "reasonable excuse" but what I have recently found out is that if you get stopped for possession of one of these, unless you are lucky enough to go to court and found innocent then this will stay on your record and show up on an enhanced DBS check. If you accept the caution then you are admitting guilt, but more likely is either the CPS will not prosecute or the judge will throw the case out without hearing it, both of which will stay on your record. Clearly an unfair system but other than moving to another country there isn't much I can do about that. I will continue to use my wave for most theatre work but the reason I ask is I was packing my bags for a festival gig this morning and though maybe wandering around a site full of drunk people with it on my belt isn't the best of ideas. Therefore I think it should look at a smaller 'everyday' tool to use when in public areas and keep the Wave for fitups etc in restricted areas that are less public. I have been looking at the Leatherman Juice range but can't help bit feel they look a bit flimsy. Buying online makes it quite hard to tell and I'm struggling to find anywhere local that stocks any multitools at all. Thanks Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whisky-zulu Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I've had a Leatherman Juice XE6 since 2005 and it's still going strong, despite being bashed around. The unit itself is about 3 inches long when folded closed, as the version I have doesn't have the blade "locking" mechanism as found on the Wave and some of the other more expensive ranges. The blades measure in at 2 1/4 inches. It is a good, smaller alternative to the Wave range in my opinion (I also own a Wave), although somewhat limited if you're stuck without a tool-kit as mine doesn't have an interchangable bit accessory. With regards to posession, if it's on your belt or in your pocket, or in what can ben deemed an easily accessible place (eg. in your centre console of your car when driving), then you can be arrested for possession of a bladed article. If you have it in your rucksack/bag, then unless you have a really piss poor excuse like self defence, or can prove that it is for work purposes, the chances of you being arressted decrease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Do,you need a blade? There are some blade less multitools available that have pliers/cutters/screwdrivers, some have scissors too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb12345 Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Nope I could actually live without a blade. A small one would be handy but the main thing I use is the long nose pliers. I have picked up a Stanley multi-tool from a local hardware shop for £16 today. It's got plastic parts and I'm not sure about the long term survival of it, but it will do in the short term. Can you confirm that the Juice XE6 blades are non locking then? Hard to tell for sure online. If so I might invest come Payday. Having a girlfriend who's a probation officer and studied criminology at uni (with a dissertation on knife crime) has certainly opened my eyes on this subject. She has quite a few copper friends and I have now asked 4 different officers, in different ranks, from different forces, at different times (without knowing the other's opinions) and the conversation has gone the same way with every one...."Is it longer than 3"?" "No""Does it lock?""Define Lock?""Do you have to push a button to close it""Yes""You're getting nicked""But...""No buts..." That includes if they find it in your bag, toolbox, boot.... anywhere. One even said I would be getting nicked for having a Stanley knife in my toolbox. Also the definition of a 'public place' in the law is "outside of one's home" - which also seems to include being at a friend's house. Interestingly I have always carried it around safe in the knowledge that I have "reasonable excuse" - after all there is a page on the government website that says working in theatre is a good reason to have one (https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives). However what I have recently learnt is what the law actually says is that it shall be a "reasonable defence" to have good reason to carry the article - basically it means if you have one you are breaking the law - you can use 'I work in theatre' as a defence in court, but to the copper on the street you have broken the law. You only defend yourself to the magistrate/jury. Another point that came up is "I work in theatre" is a reasonable excuse to carry a multi-tool yes, but actually what they will be looking for is "reasonable excuse for needing a locking knife over a non locking one". I tried to explain that the locking mechanism of the Wave makes it possible to operate it one handed when working at height etc but that didn't seem to get me far. Yes the chances of getting searched are slim unless you are being a tw@t, but the potential penalty if it all goes wrong is quite high. As I mentioned above the worst thing is that unless you actually go all the way through a trial and are found innocent then actually it will stay on your record as 'known to police' forever too. Just thought I would share my findings with the group anyway - as I suspect quite a few other people would be interested to hear this. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathanhill Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 - after all there is a page on the government website that says working in theatre is a good reason to have one (https://www.gov.uk/b...carrying-knives). The guidance linked to above says: Examples of good reasons to carry a knife in public can include: taking knives you use at work to and from worktaking knives to a gallery or museum to be exhibitedthe knife is going to be used for theatre, film, television, historical reenactment or religious purposes, eg the kirpan some Sikhs carryA court will decide if you've got a good reason to carry a knife if you're charged with carrying it illegally. (My bold) I read that as being used for theatrical effect, rather than being used by theatre workers. I reckon the court might as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_s Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 - after all there is a page on the government website that says working in theatre is a good reason to have one (https://www.gov.uk/b...carrying-knives). The guidance linked to above says: Examples of good reasons to carry a knife in public can include: taking knives you use at work to and from worktaking knives to a gallery or museum to be exhibitedthe knife is going to be used for theatre, film, television, historical reenactment or religious purposes, eg the kirpan some Sikhs carryA court will decide if you've got a good reason to carry a knife if you're charged with carrying it illegally. (My bold) I read that as being used for theatrical effect, rather than being used by theatre workers. I reckon the court might as well.does that matter? carrying a leatherman or other folding knife would be covered by the first item, "taking the knives you use at work to and from work". Working in the theatre or entertainment field is exactly the same as working in any other field where knives may be considered appropriate tools, catering, for example. So long as you are carrying a knife that is considered appropriate to the work you are carrying out, that could be 10inch razor sharp chef's knife, or a leatherman with a 3 inch blade (also properly sharpened as a blunt knife is more dangerous). If you were to try and argue that you are carrying a kirpan to use at your place of work as a theatre technican, the court would be entirely right to take a dim view, as this is an inappropriate tool. (unless you were the Armourer and it was required as a prop) (of course, that doesn't affect the process you may have to go through if a police officer was to challenge you on the street) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.k.roberts Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Back to the original question; I bought a Gerber some years ago which has served me very well and although it is supplied with a locking mechanism, it is very easy to disable. http://www.gerbergear.co.uk/Essentials/Tools/MP400_45500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whisky-zulu Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Nope I could actually live without a blade. A small one would be handy but the main thing I use is the long nose pliers. I have picked up a Stanley multi-tool from a local hardware shop for £16 today. It's got plastic parts and I'm not sure about the long term survival of it, but it will do in the short term. Can you confirm that the Juice XE6 blades are non locking then? Hard to tell for sure online. If so I might invest come Payday. Having a girlfriend who's a probation officer and studied criminology at uni (with a dissertation on knife crime) has certainly opened my eyes on this subject. She has quite a few copper friends and I have now asked 4 different officers, in different ranks, from different forces, at different times (without knowing the other's opinions) and the conversation has gone the same way with every one...."Is it longer than 3"?" "No""Does it lock?""Define Lock?""Do you have to push a button to close it""Yes""You're getting nicked""But...""No buts..." That includes if they find it in your bag, toolbox, boot.... anywhere. One even said I would be getting nicked for having a Stanley knife in my toolbox. Also the definition of a 'public place' in the law is "outside of one's home" - which also seems to include being at a friend's house. Interestingly I have always carried it around safe in the knowledge that I have "reasonable excuse" - after all there is a page on the government website that says working in theatre is a good reason to have one (https://www.gov.uk/b...carrying-knives). However what I have recently learnt is what the law actually says is that it shall be a "reasonable defence" to have good reason to carry the article - basically it means if you have one you are breaking the law - you can use 'I work in theatre' as a defence in court, but to the copper on the street you have broken the law. You only defend yourself to the magistrate/jury. Another point that came up is "I work in theatre" is a reasonable excuse to carry a multi-tool yes, but actually what they will be looking for is "reasonable excuse for needing a locking knife over a non locking one". I tried to explain that the locking mechanism of the Wave makes it possible to operate it one handed when working at height etc but that didn't seem to get me far. Yes the chances of getting searched are slim unless you are being a tw@t, but the potential penalty if it all goes wrong is quite high. As I mentioned above the worst thing is that unless you actually go all the way through a trial and are found innocent then actually it will stay on your record as 'known to police' forever too. Just thought I would share my findings with the group anyway - as I suspect quite a few other people would be interested to hear this. Nick Juice XE6 blade on the model I have is non locking, but I've had mine since 2005; the design might have changed since then. As for what your "sources" say, have it on your person, yes we'll nick you (I am also a serving Special Constable), as that shows intent. Having it in your bag without a reasonable excuse, yes we'll nick you as that shows intent. The old "Self defence" mantra is not a reasonable excuse in the U.K.. The onus is on you to prove that you require the item for work purposes and not for self defence or going equipped to steal/burgle, etc. However, with every part of the Law, common sense and interpretation of it come into play, but if we go from your "sources'" examples, we'd be nicking every chef out there travelling around with their knife bundle, or every copper, workman, fitter, builder in the land, which isn't practical.Each of those people has the defence that they require the item for the purposes of their work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.elsbury Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Am I the only one who feels you're over thinking this a wee bit? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyro_gearloose Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The onus is on you to prove that you require the item for work purposes and not for self defence or going equipped to steal/burgle, etc. Why? What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? As a theatre technician I often travel home late at night. If I were stopped and found to be in possession of a multitool with a blade, how am I to prove that I'm not going equipped to mug/burgle/steal? Its quite hard to prove a negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleah Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Also the definition of a 'public place' in the law is "outside of one's home" - which also seems to include being at a friend's house. Could make getting a nice new Stanley home from B&Q interesting then....... :blink: Now I've driven round for weeks before now with a Stanley knife, screwdrivers, hammer, wrench, side cutters just floating round in the boot of the car (hatchback) because I've used them for something at work and simply not been ar5ed to take them out, being something of a lazy git. I work across multiple sites so leaving them in one place isn't very practical.... I don't always have a tool box as I tend to chuck things in crates and then swap stuff around. Proper organised!!!! :** laughs out loud **: So would I seriously be charged with 'going equipped' because in law, I'm clearly guilty of it unless I can prove my innocence? :o How DO you prove your innocence? I'm fortunate being employed that my employer can back me up that I do use said tools at multiple sites - at least I hope they would. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb12345 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 However, with every part of the Law, common sense and interpretation of it come into play, but if we go from your "sources'" examples, we'd be nicking every chef out there travelling around with their knife bundle, or every copper, workman, fitter, builder in the land, which isn't practical.Each of those people has the defence that they require the item for the purposes of their work. Chef's knives are not locking blades (although they are often over 3"). Also a chef has to use a knife all the time, but a Lighting Technician isn't associated with needing a knife to do their job. Am I the only one who feels you're over thinking this a wee bit? :-) I am very much playing the devil's advocate here, because this is the response I am getting from the policey people that I'm asking. I have no intention of not using my Wave, but it just seems that every defence I throw at them they have a good answer to. The onus is on you to prove that you require the item for work purposes and not for self defence or going equipped to steal/burgle, etc. Why? What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? As a theatre technician I often travel home late at night. If I were stopped and found to be in possession of a multitool with a blade, how am I to prove that I'm not going equipped to mug/burgle/steal? Its quite hard to prove a negative. Exactly my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_s Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 kitchen knives don't need a lock, do they? they are permanently "out" and locked in position (one could argue). I'm willing to bet at least 50p that the majority of knife crime in London is committed with something more resembling a kitchen knife than a multitool. For one thing they are much cheaper and much more widely available. "going equipped" is slightly different, I guess. Though if you believe what you see in the movies, having a credit card in your wallet is "going equipped". I am trying as hard as I can to avoid saying that the law is an ass. (Oh, and if I am doing lighting, I will use the pliers, the screwdrivers, sometimes the file, and use the blade for cutting gel, or perhaps if de-rigging a bar where someone has been over-zealous with the PVC tape to hold the cables in place, for cutting that off. So I'd say I had a legitimate reason for carrying a multitool including a blade at work. Wouldn't want to "prove" it in a court of law however, what a waste of time and money). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whisky-zulu Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I've said all I fancy saying in open regarding knives and the Law, and quite honestly I agree with David. Anyway, in an attempt to get back on topic, I've attached a photograph of my rather battered XE6 showing the blade: http://prntscr.com/7n4kfq . It doesn't have a locking mechanism like the Wave, though like I've said previously, I can't vouch for the newer models. To be honest when I got my first Wave back in 2010, I was really surprised that Leatherman had given the blade such a mechanism, and that when I bought my replacement for it last year (the original got nicked from the boot of my car along with my work bag in a London underground carpark -.-) they'd still got the mechanism in place. I don't see any real need for that mechanism to be there, unless Leatherman had people managing to close the blade on their fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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